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Lord Ackner: My Lords, is the noble and learned Lord aware of the following facts? First, in 2004, he wrote to the judges promising that the value of judges' pension benefits would not be adversely affected by the new pensions regime established by the Finance Act 2002. Secondly, a judicial pensions Bill was announced in the Queen's Speech. Thirdly, the Judges' Council has worked with DCA officials to consider the draft Bill and that Bill in its present form has been accepted by the Judges' Council as a fair solution to the problem of preserving the position of judges in post on and after 6 April 2006. Finally, that Bill has not been presented to Parliament and the Government will not say when, if ever, it will be presented. Does the noble and learned Lord accept that unless the Bill becomes law prior to 6 April 2006 a significant number of judges who remain in post after that date will suffer a reduction in their total pension package on retirement, which would sour relations between the Government and the judiciary?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I am aware of all of those facts, but I do not accept the last proposition. May I say that the noble and learned Lord was a brilliant judge, but he was wasted as a judge? I am quite unable to understand why he did not join the Transport and General Workers' Union as a full-time official, putting its members' point of view with the eloquence and force that he has just shown.

Lord Goodhart: My Lords, we on these Benches feel somewhat differently about this issue from the noble
 
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and learned Lord. I am well aware that the personal relationship between the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor and senior members of the judiciary is very good, but that is not entirely true of all his colleagues. It is clear that the rule of law is an essential part of the constitution. Will he therefore advise some of his colleagues, including his right honourable friend the Prime Minister, when discussing issues about the rule of law not to speak about there being "the rules of the game"? This is not a game.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, when my right honourable friend the Prime Minister talked about "the rules of the game" he was not talking about the rule of law. He was talking about the extent to which this country would continue to be welcoming to those who sought to plot the downfall of the state. That is a completely different issue from the rule of law, which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister accepts must be upheld by ensuring the independence of the judiciary.

Lord Taylor of Blackburn: My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor not agree that if I ask a question in this House relating to something in which I have an interest, I am brought to order and I have to declare that interest? I often find that lawyers can get away with murder in this House in asking questions in which they have pecuniary and other interests? No one ever challenges them about it.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I think it would be unfair to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, to say that he has an interest because, although he is a young and sprightly fellow, he is already taking his judicial pension and it will not be affected by whatever happens in relation to the judicial pensions Bill.

Smoking in the Workplace

11.25 am

Baroness Neuberger asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will take steps to ban all smoking in the workplace in view of the recently published paper in the British Medical Journal on the subject.

The Minister of State, Department of Health (Lord Warner): My Lords, we have announced our intention to introduce a Bill in this Session which will end smoking in the vast majority of workplaces and enclosed public places. Over the summer, a major public consultation has been completed and we are considering the many thousands of responses before finalising the Bill.

Baroness Neuberger: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. Is he fully aware of the evidence that came out of the BMJ online last Monday and out of Tobacco Control that as a result of the legislation in the Irish Republic the reduction in the levels of cotinine in
 
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saliva is very considerable, far greater than in Northern Ireland? Is he not aware that the Department of Health has been arguing firmly for evidence-based policy? Do we not now have the evidence?

Lord Warner: My Lords, the Department of Health has an impeccable record on evidence-based policy. I am well aware of the paper to which the noble Baroness alludes. We are looking closely at this and other studies of the impact of smoke-free legislation. We will take full account of all the studies from Ireland and other parts of the world where legislation has been used to protect workers and the general public from exposure to second-hand smoke.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that, in coming to the decision announced on Monday, his ministerial colleague responsible for health in Northern Ireland considered every possible variation to the policy, including exemptions for pubs that do not serve food, for ventilation and for the introduction of so-called smoking carriages; but that he concluded, with the full support of the Northern Irish people, as far as I understand, that only a comprehensive smoke-free policy would protect the public and work people? Does not my noble friend think it would be very strange if we had a policy that protected people in Northern Ireland, in the Irish Republic, in Scotland and in Wales but did not have an identical one in England?

Lord Warner: My Lords, I well understand my noble friend's views on this subject and I am well aware of what my colleague, Shaun Woodward, said in relation to Northern Ireland. I would urge upon my noble friend and other noble Lords to await the publication of the Bill.

Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, the damaging effect upon human health of both active and passive smoking is now so well understood that it deserves no repetition. Can the Minister confirm that, contrary to the proposals of the Government a few months ago, the Bill they propose to introduce will now ban smoking in all pubs, clubs and similar enclosed spaces, and not only in those where food is served?

Lord Warner: My Lords, the Government accept the issues surrounding second-hand smoke. That is why we launched in September a campaign which highlights the hidden dangers of second-hand smoke to adults, moving on from our previous campaign around the risk to children. All I can say to the noble Lord in relation to legislation is that he—much as I respect his judgment in these areas—must, like other noble Lords, await the publication of the Bill.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, can the Minister say how long England will take deliberating on its consultation while Wales has to wait for the primary legislation it needs to enact the results of its
 
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own consultations? The decisions have already been debated in the Welsh Assembly and the Welsh Assembly Government have agreed on their proposed strategy.

Lord Warner: My Lords, if you have a public consultation which does not end until the early part of September, it is customary for all governments to take account of the views and evidence produced in that consultation. Ministers are doing just that; they are taking account of all the evidence, as I assured the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger. Patience, while waiting, is a virtue in Wales and in England.

Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, before the Government succumb totally to the overwhelming puritanism surrounding them at the moment, will they take fully on board the difficulties expressed by one who is in the last-patch stage of giving up smoking? It is a nightmare and an unnerving experience and success is best achieved in a relaxed atmosphere, which is seldom found in the workplace.

Lord Warner: My Lords, as many noble Lords know, this is a fun loving government and we reject all accusations of puritanism in this area. On behalf of the whole House, I congratulate the noble Lord on the progress he is making. Anything more that my colleagues and I can do to help him in the steady progress he is making we will be very happy to do.

Lord Rogan: My Lords, I am sure that the law is popular. Along with, I believe, the vast majority of the citizens of Northern Ireland, I welcome the decision made by our Government to ban smoking in the Province. We are still puzzled why more research is needed before the good citizens of England can be shown the same consideration.

Lord Warner: My Lords, I take note of the noble Lord's views.

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