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Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I thought I had already underlined the point that we share the noble Lord's support for and commitment to community service orders. That was exactly what we put in place in recent legislation. The Government are looking very carefully at ways in which we can strengthen that. As I said, the Home Secretary in recent comments and speeches has made it clear that he expects much greater, more imaginative and better use of that approach to sentencing. I believe that the benefits of that are there for everyone to see.
Lord Dholakia: My Lords, we are pleased that there is a slight increase in community punishment orders. Will the Minister accept his own figures, the criminal statistics for 2000, which show that of all sentences passed only 11 per cent of them are community service orders? Does he accept that the people who would previously have been fined are now receiving community service orders and that the people who would benefit by community service orders are now finding themselves in prison? Is the noble Lord, Lord Carlisle, not right in saying that people who are in prison, particularly the short-term prisoners, would benefit much more from community service orders? Will he advise the Home Secretary to follow the lead given by the Lord Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolfe, to shout much more about community sentences rather than prison?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the noble Lord underlines very usefully points that other noble Lords have made. I have made it plain that we accept the importance, the case, the value and the merit of community service orders. The Home Secretary has made that plain and guidance makes that plain. However, the Government must be independent of the judiciary and ultimately it is for those who act in judgment over others to decide what is appropriate when issuing sentences in court. One has to respect that fact.
The Lord Bishop of St Albans: My Lords, the Minister has made it clear that community service orders are good value for money, yet the use of prison sentences is increasing. Does he believe that that increase in prison sentencing is a trend in the right direction? If not, what steps will he and the Government take to redress that trend?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I thought that I had made it plain that it is the Government's view
that we want to see increased dependence on community penalties—community service orders. The Government are committed to improving the way in which the orders are used. We have commissioned research in the form of the important Halliday report, Making Punishments Work, which reflects on those issues. It is an important element of government policy. We shall continue to promote the virtues and benefits of community sentencing.Convention on the Future of Europe
3.1 p.m.
Lord Elton asked Her Majesty's Government:
- What will be the status of the recommendations of the Convention on the Future of Europe and what means will be open to (a) the United Kingdom Parliament and (b) Her Majesty's Government to influence the policies implemented and the institutions established as a result.
The Minister for Trade (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean): My Lords, the Laeken Declaration states that the convention's final document,
- "will provide a starting point for discussions in the IGC, which will take the ultimate decisions".
Lord Elton: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Can she suggest to her right honourable friend the Prime Minister that, over dinner this evening with former President Giscard d'Estaing, he proposes that the parliaments of both countries should be given an opportunity to decide what kind of Europe they want in the future; that is, before irreversibly locking in their countries by agreeing to anything concluded by the IGC?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, perhaps I may remind the noble Lord, Lord Elton, that Parliament can feed through thoughts to the convention, not only through the parliamentary representative, but in this House through our alternative representatives, my noble friend Lord Tomlinson and the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart. Reports, papers and documents for consideration can be submitted to the convention through the UK's parliamentary representatives as well as directly to the convention itself. Should he wish to note it, I can give the noble Lord the relevant website. Furthermore, such submissions can also be made direct to the website of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, will not the status of the convention recommendations depend on the extent to which any offer of a constitutional
framework advances the possibility of greater effectiveness where the Union should have power, along with greater democratic accountability for its actions? Are not those aims the thrust of both Her Majesty's Government and the representatives of the two Houses of Parliament in these discussions?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, status is a difficult word to use. I should perhaps say that the acceptability of what is brought forward from the convention will depend very much on that. The status of the convention conclusions is that they will be submitted to parliaments for discussion before governments then move forward—on the basis of having heard those parliamentary discussions—to consider what should go to the IGC. Of course there will be many views about how the constitution of the European Union should be taken forward.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick: My Lords, following on the thrust of the Question put by my noble friend Lord Elton, at what point does the Minister consider that an organisation making its own laws and having an elected parliament, supreme court, army, its own currency, passport and citizenship, and now to have legal personality and possibly a constitution, ceases to be an international organisation and becomes a state?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, it would become one at the point when parliaments took that decision. I do not believe that parliaments will take such a decision. The noble Lord has gone straight to the end of a process that we are now going through and has prejudged the outcome. At this point, noble Lords have a very good opportunity to put forward their points of view. A further opportunity will be offered when the convention documents come before Parliament for consideration. Furthermore, another opportunity will be offered by the IGC. At this stage, nothing is ruled out.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, as time goes by, does it not appear that the convention is what would be called by the financial fraternity a "done deal"? Did not the Minister see the submission made to the convention last week by Romano Prodi, arguing for greatly increased powers for the Commission, much more centralisation, more involvement in foreign affairs and the full incorporation of the Charter of Fundamental Rights into the treaty itself? Since the Government are, I understand, strongly opposed to many, if not all, of those propositions, have they submitted a paper to the Commission firmly refuting them? If so, may we see a copy of it?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, whenever I respond to questions on these issues, I wonder how long it will be before Mr Prodi receives an honourable mention from the Benches opposite. I have not been disappointed today. The fact is that we have hardly started this process. So far, only four plenary sessions have been held on broad principles, competencies, instruments and so forth. Two further
sessions are to be held over the course of the summer on EU policy and civil society. Working groups are being set up. I believe that noble Lords have a broad opportunity to make their views known.Perhaps I may say to the noble Lord that when I last responded to questions on this issue on 7th May, I invited the noble Lord to put forward suggestions, if he had any, with regard to how the process could be made more effective. I understand that no paper has yet been put in by the Government, but I am sure that in due course I shall be able to tell noble Lords whether such a paper is forthcoming.
The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn): My Lords, it is the turn of my noble friend Lord Barnett.
Lord Barnett: My Lords, I start from an equally prejudiced view to that of the noble Lord, Lord Lamont—although it hails from the opposite perspective—by asking my noble friend to revert to the Question on the Order Paper. Can she confirm that, whatever is proposed by this obviously divided convention, the Government can dispose of it in whichever way they wish?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, knowing as I do that none of your Lordships is prejudiced and that all noble Lords are entirely reasonable, my noble friend is entirely right to highlight the fact that of course that is the case.
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