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4.57 pm
Lord Ryder of Wensum: My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, on opening this debate with such clarity. I pay tribute to the meticulous work carried out by the committee under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. Ever since my East Anglian childhood more than 50 years ago, I have prized the broads at close quarters. No one who read Arthur Ransome in their youth could forget his glorious descriptions of the broads in the Coot Club. When later, 25 years ago, I was fortunate enough to represent the broads in the other place, it became clear, partly due to a threat to the existence of the Halvergate marshes, that primary legislation was essential to preserve this special landscape for the future. Consequently, I managed to persuade the Government—it was not a difficult task after the usual shadow boxing—to legislate in their own time. Indeed, the Broads Bill received a specific mention in the 1987 gracious Speech. As a member of the Government I had the privilege not only of being a representative of the broads but of piloting the Bill through the other place.
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The original 1998 Act succeeded in meeting its principal objectives and has stood up well to the test of time. Nevertheless, loose ends needed to be tidied up, hence the Bill before us today. It was important to strike the right balances in the Bill. I share the views of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, that these aims have been achieved. On safety, for example, there is a balance between the rights of individuals and the need to regulate for public protection. When it comes to the composition of the authority, we should remember that national parks and the broads are national assets. So I defend the appointments of some members by the Secretary of State and, of course, communities in Norfolk and Suffolk are well represented by eight elected members of local authorities, who all supported the Bill. At the end of the process, there were no outstanding petitions from boating, angling and amenity interests. Securing consensus with most of the boating fraternity marks a major success, yet we all know that the authority must continue—as I know it will—to improve engagement with local interests by matching best practices in national parks and national park authorities.
I have no hesitation in praising successive chairmen and chief executives of the authority as well as their boards and officials. Norfolk and Suffolk are fortunate to be served by people with such dedication and skills. It gives me huge personal pleasure to support this Bill in the sure knowledge that future generations of residents and visitors will be able to enjoy the unique beauty of the broads thanks to the measures taken during the past quarter of a century in our two Houses of Parliament.
I end with one tiny plea. The finest views of the broads can be seen from the summit of the tower of Ranworth church, the so-called parish church of the broads. Let not the potentates of health and safety prohibit future generations from observing this marvellous, protected landscape on the tower, while perhaps reading passages from Arthur Ransome and Ted Ellis, two wonderful bards of the broads. From the top of Ranworth church, you can now continue to gaze at beauty in all its silent eloquence. The legislation has worked; let us be grateful for its successes over the past 20 years.
5.02 pm
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, I cannot follow my noble friend in his eloquence about the view from anywhere from the Norfolk Broads. As I live in Aberdeenshire, it is far too far away to see. However, I have visited them in the past—and I reflected that when I spoke at Second Reading.
Like my noble friend, I can be fairly brief. I acknowledge the degree of movement and the degree of scrutiny that the movement came from during the Committee on this Bill. It reflected a number of the concerns registered at Second Reading; the Committee process was very thorough and fully debated, and I am grateful to those who played such a full part in it.
One or two issues still remain, which have been touched on this afternoon. The first, as my noble friend Lady Shephard said, is that there remains a very large number of people closely associated with the broads, in Norfolk, Suffolk and no doubt elsewhere,
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Those who promote the Bill cannot really hide behind the fact that, technically, the Broads will not become a national park. Yet it will in almost every sense—and may not be subject to any changes that might derive from any review of democracy in the national parks authorities. One could well say, at least, that the Bill is premature, however long it has taken to get to this stage. I hope that the Minister will be able to say when that report on the national parks authorities’ democratisation is to be published. Or, indeed, is one tempted to believe from the process of the Bill that what is to be decided is already pre-ordained and understood by those who promote it?
The other matter I must return to is that of safety. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, referred to that just now and I, indeed, raised a number of such concerns at Second Reading. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, made a number of points about it to me then, suggesting that there had been “two deaths”, for example, “in 2006”, and that he could have read out a list of,
He sent me a great deal of information about that, but I have read the Broads Authority’s report from its own website, dated 28 May, headed:
“Broads Authority’s safety record praised”.
“For the second year running there were no boat related deaths ... There were only four boat fires, half that of the previous year, and a fifth of the number in 2006. One of the four was caused by arson, and only one of the boats had a Boat Safety Certificate”.
I cannot understand why the noble Baroness so clearly says that this cannot be dealt with by by-laws. The report continues:
“Last year six out of 11 injuries needing hospital treatment on the Broads were caused”
by people when “embarking or disembarking”, and goes on to talk about various other elements in a new safety campaign called look before you leap. Do we really need further legislation to enforce common sense? We may do, but we may also have concerns about health and safety legislation. It seems to me that
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Even if the sponsors of the Bill are well meaning—and I have every reason to believe that they are—I have great concerns that it is unnecessary. The Broads Authority works as it is; the facts about safety, which I quoted, show that it is already addressing the issues that the Bill is now trying to enforce. At the least, it should wait until the Government’s view on democracy in national parks is published and debated. Frankly, I deplore the need for further legislation at this stage.
5.07 pm
Lord Trimble: My Lords, I declare an interest as a boat owner; one, indeed, whose boat’s safety certificate is due for renewal within the next year. As noble Lords mentioned earlier, I was on the Committee and found it an interesting experience. It is the first time that I had served on an Opposed Private Bill Committee, so it rounds out my parliamentary experience in that respect. It is also the case, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, has said, that the objectors were largely experienced sailors and that the objections from boating interests had been withdrawn, which is a significant fact.
However, listening to the objections from those experienced sailors, I was impressed by their commitment to the Broads and their desire to maintain the special characteristics of that waterway. I also felt that their objections were not so much to the substance of the Bill as reflecting a concern about how the new powers and procedures would operate. That concern came back to how the Broads Authority might operate, and so on. That is why there has been a focus on accountability and on trying to increase the number of elected representatives; particularly, to bring them in from parish council level.
While, as has been mentioned, the Committee did not inquire or take a position on this—the matter was out for consultation and the question of electing parish councillors was outside the scope of the Bill, so that any further comments I make are personal and in no way reflect the Committee as a whole—had this issue come before the Committee, I would have felt very sympathetic to it. That is worth reflecting on further because, if there were greater accountability, particularly of local representatives, that would go a long way to allay any concerns that people might have about how the new regime will operate in practice.
I noted that in the discussion of parish councils, there were the usual arguments about there being 93, none of which was wholly within the area of the authority. I am not inclined to attach much weight to that argument because the Broads are significant to the wider community beyond the narrow boundaries of the authority itself. When one looks at that wider community, the geographic area argument does not carry weight.
I noted also the positive proposals made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, with regard to the Broads Forum and increasing the number of parish councillors there. It may be worth pursuing that further, but I hope that it will be possible for the Minister to find ways of increasing the elected representation on the
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From my perspective, as one whose boat is moored within the purview of British Waterways, the changes do not seem to be so dramatic because much of the change is bringing the authority into line with the provisions that apply both for British Waterways and the Environment Agency. But it is a significant change for people who are in the Broads area. Looking sympathetically at ways of building public confidence is something that I hope will be pursued.
5.11 pm
Lord Walpole: My Lords, at Second Reading I explained that I was chairman of the planning and transportation committee at Norfolk County Council when there were the first indications that a Broads Authority of some sort ought to exist. When I arrived in this House, some 10 years later, the Bill had just gone through.
I must thank those people who have been so good at bringing this Bill as far as they have, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, for introducing the debate this afternoon, the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for chairing the committee, and my Bishop, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich—who is not here either—for introducing the Bill in the first place.
I still like the Broads enormously. They are still the place where I go when I want to rest. On our last holiday—we had a week off a fortnight ago—my wife and I took a boat on the Broads and it was so nice for a whole day not to have any interference from anyone who wanted to get hold of us. It was wonderful; it was a real Lord’s holiday.
It would be churlish of me not to welcome the completion of the Bill. I welcome it. I realise that there are a few odd ends that must be tied up later, but for heaven’s sake let us get this bit through and do the other bits later. Thank you.
5.13 pm
Lord Addington: My Lords, I do not think that I can be quite as brief as the noble Lord, Lord Walpole, but I do not have much to add because most of the discussion has been with those who have engaged in this very thoroughly. I believe, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, that we need to ensure that there is a regulatory basis to enforce basic safety requirements and to try to get the balance right for those who wish to use these wonderful waterways.
The Broads are not natural; they are dug out of gravel pits. As an East Anglian, I remember somebody saying something about them being a wonderful natural environment. They were accused, if I can use the Norfolk expression, of talking a lot of old squit about them, because they are not. They are something that has become a part of Norfolk and East Anglia. They are felt to belong to the people who live in that part of the world.
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Making sure that the Broads are operated safely so that everyone can have full enjoyment of them is very important. It is also probably necessary because of the different stresses on any amount of open water now. Sailing opposed to motor-powered boating is always going to have a degree of conflict. Something that addresses this in certain ways, as this Bill seems to, is probably necessary and must be kept under review.
For someone who is not great with heights, the idea suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Ryder, of observing anything from a church steeple with a book in one hand filled me with dread. My romantic vision and his will have to differ on this one.
The main area of concern to many local people is that they are not well enough represented. Those who have tangled across the Dispatch Box with the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, are familiar with her skill in presenting a case. She said that there are ways round this and that you can do this and that. Yet the shortest distance between two points is usually a straight line, or at least as straight as you can make it. I feel that we could have done something better. The Bill should bring in at least some form of more directly elected officials into the committees and things that regulate. Yet I have heard no serious objection to this Bill becoming an Act, so I have no intention of further delaying the House.
5.16 pm
Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, it is satisfying to see the Bill return from the committee. I thank all the distinguished Members of your Lordships’ House who have spent time evaluating and examining the Bill in a detail that we were unable to provide at Second Reading. Thanks to the Printed Paper Office, I have a record of the proceedings, which, as noble Lords might expect, were thorough and show the diligence with which this House deals with such matters.
As I said at Second Reading, someone from Lincolnshire is wary of intervening in a subject that is Norfolk and Suffolk business. Yet we all have an interest in the effective management of the Broads area. It is a leisure destination for the whole nation and a unique environment that adds greatly to the biodiversity of our country. My noble friend Lord Ryder pointed out the degree to which it is a special place, perhaps unique in the British Isles.
This has been a useful debate and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis of Heigham, for bringing the Bill to Third Reading in the absence of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich. It is a shame not to have the Abbot of St Benet’s here today, but the noble Baroness is a distinguished Member of the House and well qualified, as a Broads boat owner of some 30 years, to move the Motion at Third Reading. She had to disabuse me of my impression that she was from Potter Heigham, the bridge of which is one of the more prominent landmarks on the Broads. That in no way reduces the authority with which she speaks on this and other subjects.
My own experience of the Broads is more limited, if lifelong. My visits on a modest, hired-for-the-day launch dropped off when my mastery of the vessel was challenged
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This Bill is primarily about the running of the authority, in particular the relationships between navigation and leisure, and other aspects of the running of the Broads. As we have discovered in debate, this is by no means straightforward. The authority’s navigation officer has to reconcile the interests of highly skilled yachtsmen and sailors with protecting the occasional leisure user and keeping them safe. I include myself in that latter category. I expressed concern at Second Reading about possible conflicts, and the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, indicated that he still has his concerns about the Bill. Many noble Lords speaking have done so.
It is important that the authority listens to this criticism. I am pleased to have received a briefing from Dr John Packman, the chief executive of the Broads Authority. It is good to know that there is a continuing dialogue with government on how the Broads Authority—and, for that matter, national parks—connect with local authorities and communities. My noble friend Lady Shephard is right to emphasise this and to question the Government’s commitment to it. I hope that the Minister, an astute operator at the Dispatch Box, can respond positively to the cries from all speakers that local accountability and involvement are important.
That must be the key. It is important that the authority is seen as a facilitator by local people and not an imposition. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, has today talked of changes to the Broads Forum. It is important that, if this is to address the issues that matter and be a real force in the governance of the Broads and not a talking shop, it should be truly representative of the local community and speak with the authority that comes from the mandate of local and community interests. However, it is no substitute for the direct involvement of the local community in the administration of the authority.
Once again, I thank the noble Baroness for bringing the Bill forward, all other Peers for their contributions and my noble friends for their knowledgeable and wise contributions to the debate.
5.21 pm
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I congratulate all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate, but particularly my noble friend Lady Hollis on taking on the responsibility of introducing the Bill at this time. I also pay tribute to all those who have contributed to the development of the Bill from its origins. I am all too well aware of the immense amount of work that goes into Private Bills, unheralded and largely unseen, with extensive hours. I recall close parliamentary colleagues of mine being buried for months on end in Bills such as the then Channel Tunnel Bill, which was a Private Bill and seemingly went on for ever. It would withdraw parliamentary colleagues from any other form of parliamentary activity for months, if not years, on end. I am therefore a great respecter of all those who contribute to the development of a Private Bill. There never was a Private Bill that did not generate some degree of controversy and challenge, and this Bill has likewise done so.
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If the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, from Lincolnshire, is slightly hesitant in commenting upon the Broads, I am not quite sure, with my geographical background, that I should be standing here at all. However, I remind the House that I cut my political teeth in the dim and distant past by fighting a general election in Norfolk against the late Sir Ian Gilmore, Lord Gilmore of Craigmillar, who was a more than redoubtable opponent. Part of the constituency was North Walsham, so I got the delights of the Broads in January and February 1966. It was a particularly bitter winter and I therefore have a vigorous recollection of the Broads and their beauty at that time, even in sub-Arctic conditions.
I agree with the point of the noble Lord, Lord Ryder. He surely put it in more graphic terms than I could do, but we are all aware that we must watch carefully any changes to our most protected and beautiful landscapes. The Broads are special in these terms, with a particular beauty. I am therefore glad that the Bill has been subject to intensive scrutiny. I remind the House, as the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, did, that the main aim of the Bill is to improve safety on the Broads through a series of measures, including licensing of hired craft, compulsory third-party insurance and improvements to how the Broads Authority operates. The introduction of the boat safety scheme is already ensuring that vessels are properly maintained. The Bill will allow that scheme to be updated effectively and enable the Broads to, in a sense, catch up. As has already been reflected in the debate, the British Waterways Association and the Environment Agency already successfully operate a boat safety scheme, so I am glad that the Broads Authority is taking measures to bring the Broads into line with other major navigation authorities.
I also want to comment on the distinctive points that have been raised regarding the controversies over the Bill, which I think are mainly centred on the comparison between the Broads Authority and park authorities and the desirability of increasing direct elections to authorities. Let me answer the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, who asked when the formal response would be made to the Government consultation. We expect to do that in the late summer. The consultation has been extensive.
Of course, it would be surprising if a Bill which had such significance for local authorities, including the 93 parish councils referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, did not occasion some considerable interest and a wholly healthy response from those authorities as to what say they would have in future developments. I thoroughly understand the calls for direct elections to be included in the Bill.
The demands may be there, but that is different from saying that the Bill is a proper vehicle for considering whether these proposals should be included. We consider in government terms that this particular issue is somewhat outside the scope of the Bill because we are looking at the whole question of representation and this Bill has got a narrower remit than that. We are also mindful of the point which my noble friend Lady Hollis made about the question of how the democratic deficit might be dealt with. She made an interesting point in
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