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Monday, 2 July 2007.
The House met at half-past two: the LORD SPEAKER on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham.
House of Lords: New Leader
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, before Questions are called—it is an unusual procedure—perhaps I may be the first to welcome to this House as Leader the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton of Upholland. She has been in this House long enough to have built up a very substantial reputation, not just for hard work and thoroughness but for the very great decency with which she treats all Members of this House. She has set herself as one of her over-riding ambitions to work in the interests of the whole House. On behalf of the Opposition we very much welcome that view.
I take this small opportunity to pay tribute to her predecessor, the noble Baroness, Lady Amos, who earned her place in history as the first black woman to be Leader of the House of Lords and in the Cabinet. She was a very remarkable feature of this House, particularly as Secretary of State for International Development. She goes on to different things, perhaps not better—perhaps they will be—but certainly different. We wish her well for the future as she works with the European Union.
I cannot resist remarking on the absence from the Front Bench of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton—the last Lord Chancellor in the House of Lords. I very much hope that we shall see his like again some time in the future, but for now it is a loss to this House, both in body and spirit. We wish him well. However, the purpose of my speech is to welcome the noble Baroness as Leader of the House and Lord President of the Council. We all look forward to working with her.
Lord McNally: My Lords, first, I echo the tributes paid to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer—surely the Labour Lord Chancellor most beloved by the Conservative Benches—whose passing was noted with sincerity by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. I also pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Amos. I sincerely hope that she gets the job in Europe for which she is applying as it would be a very happy coalition of her passions and experience, and Europe would do well to make use of them.
The noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, knows that if she wants advice, she only has to come to the Liberal Democrats; indeed, these days I do a quick count every time I come in. As the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, said, she has a very seductive manner. Indeed, in my daydreams I sometimes think that—
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Lord McNally: My Lords, I was thinking more of “Antony and Cleopatra”, with me as Antony—but she already has an Antony. My other problem is thinking of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, as the young Octavius, but that is another matter. As he hinted, if there is such a thing as a good House of Commons man, she is certainly a good House of Lords woman. We shall all be well protected by her skills in the weeks, months and years ahead. These Benches wish her well.
Lord Williamson of Horton: My Lords, on behalf of the Cross-Benchers, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Amos, very warmly for her work as Leader of the House. We are very conscious that she has always acted in the interests of the House, and that is particularly important for the Cross-Benchers. On a personal note, I have greatly enjoyed working with her, and we have never had a cross word. From her past work in international development and from the smile on her face in the past week, I know that she is very happy in her new job. It will be good for her, and I am sure that it will be good for Africa, and we wish her well. We shall also miss greatly the presence of a Lord Chancellor in this House, particularly because it is the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, who is leaving us after his very distinguished career here. We wish him well outside the House.
Finally, and substantially, I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, to the high responsibility of leading the House. We know her well, and we have often voted in favour of her proposals on the Floor of the House, as she knows. We shall enjoy working with her for years ahead.
The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Ashton of Upholland): My Lords, I echo the sentiments that have been expressed about my noble friend Lady Amos. She cannot be with us today as she is on government business, but she will be delighted by the tributes that have been paid to her, and I share them. It is a sadness that we no longer have my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton with us, although I am sure that he will be with us on the Back Benches entertaining us and helping us in our debates for a long time to come. I look forward to that very much.
I stand here deeply privileged to be part of the talented Front-Bench team that noble Lords see before them. We will endeavour to work as hard as we can for our new Prime Minister and for the Government. I stand here also as part of a Labour group with whom I share the same values and beliefs, and I look forward to working closely with all of them in the future. More than anything, the honour that was bestowed on me was this: my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said, “I want you to lead the House of Lords”. I will lead the whole House.
Energy: Fossil Fuels
2.42 pm
Lord Ezra asked Her Majesty’s Government:
In view of the increase in fossil fuel usage worldwide, why they are not proceeding faster with the application of carbon capture and storage technology.
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Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the Government announced in the Budget in March 2007 that a competition for commercial-scale demonstration of carbon capture and storage is expected to be launched in November this year. As indicated in the recent energy White Paper, we intend the UK’s first CCS demonstration plant to be up and running some time between 2011 and 2014. Current indications are that we will be among the first, if not the first, in the world to do so.
Lord Ezra: My Lords, while it is satisfactory to note the Government’s support for this important technology, is not the competitive route a somewhat leisurely approach to it, in view of the fact that no less than 87 per cent of all the energy presently consumed in the world is in the form of fossil fuel and that in China alone two new large coal-fired power stations are being commissioned every week? Is it not regrettable that the BP plant for carbon capture at Peterhead in Scotland has been scrapped because of the delay in the formulation of government policy when it was one of the most advanced of its kind in the world? Are there not half a dozen other projects at various stages of development? Why cannot the Government adopt an incentive scheme similar to that provided for renewables to get these projects going and thus generate substantial commercial prospects, both in Britain and abroad?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord is right that this technology has the prospect of reducing carbon emissions by 28 per cent by 2050 for the whole of the world’s emissions and therefore it is a very important technology indeed. The Government have opted for a competition because accepting the BP project would have obliged us to put all our eggs in one basket. It is important to get the technology right, given its significance for future progress, in not just the United Kingdom but the world.
Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, is not the situation even worse than that described by the noble Lord, Lord Ezra? Is the Minister aware that last week I received a letter from his colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Rooker? Because this project is no longer viable, it cannot be put on permanent hold due to the geology of the Miller field. The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, told me that the project was not even being considered as a possible opt-in for the European emissions trading system and would never be able to benefit from the carbon credits available under that system. Is that not a hugely damaging missed opportunity by the Government?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, as I indicated in my Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, the Government were faced with two choices. One was to support the BP project as it stood and accept that as a decision indicating the Government’s very significant support. The support that the Government will give to the winner of any competition will be measured in hundreds of millions of pounds and will be a very important development. The Government had a
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Lord Tanlaw: My Lords, is the real reason for not proceeding with carbon containment that the Greenland ice core evidence now proves that atmospheric carbon increases are the effects of global warming, not the cause of it, or is it that, just as firemen cannot subdue the heat of a blaze by catching the smoke, Kyoto-inspired Governments now realise that they are unlikely to reduce global warming by containing atmospheric carbon, particularly if solar radiation, not terrestrial industrialisation, is found to be the prime cause of global warming?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord recognises that the science of climate change is complex, but there is no doubt at all that there is significant scientific proof of the advantage to the world of dealing with carbon storage capture and the development of clean coal. That is against a background of China in particular, and India, having enormous numbers of coal-burning power stations. That is why this technological breakthrough is so important but, as the noble Lord indicated, other issues are at stake. We are discussing this technology in relation to one very important dimension of the problem.
Lord Taylor of Blackburn: My Lords, I get a bit fed up with a lot of the cribbing at our energy industry. Does my noble friend agree that we are one of the world leaders in energy? As a former director of Drax power station, one of the largest coal-fired stations, I can say that we are now completely up to date with many things. Should there not be more co-operation between government departments, especially the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, my noble friend is typical of those on the Labour Benches who speak up for Britain and its achievements. He is right in saying that we should recognise that, even with the timetable for this competition, Britain will be in the lead in developing this technology when it comes on stream between 2011 and 2014. I recognise that my noble friend emphasises the need for co-operation between departments and across technologies and across nations in order to deal with this massive problem of climate change.
Lord Redesdale: My Lords, considering that new power stations are being designed, should there not be a regulatory requirement for any new power station to be carbon capture and storage ready, given that many of them being designed at the moment are not? I congratulate the noble Lord on taking up the Liberal Democrat policy on the DTI, but will implementing that policy cause any hold-up in the bid for carbon storage and capture?
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Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the Government move seamlessly on their productive way and there is therefore not the slightest problem of any hiatus in their achievements in energy policy over the change of government effected over the past few days. As for the new power stations, of course it will be recognised that we have to reach the stage when we can utilise the technology of carbon storage. It is right, however, to look ahead in the development of new power stations in order that as far as possible they are consistent with it.
Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, we agree with the words of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Blackburn. It is a terrible thing when we see our own great companies foundering because of the lack of co-operation between departments. How badly does the Minister feel, as I do right now, that we will not give permission by the end of the year in order that the Miller oilfield will be viable? It will not be viable for BP if the Government hesitate any longer.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, great companies are not foundering, they are part of consortia bidding in this competition to provide the most successful technology we can employ. Anyone who thinks that BP is foundering has a very odd perspective on the success of that company.
Roads: Speed Cameras
2.51 pm
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, with deepest shame, I confess that I have an interest in this matter. I have been caught by these cameras on a couple of occasions and have several points upon my licence.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: A brave man, my Lords.
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
How much revenue was raised by speed cameras on major roads in the United Kingdom during the last convenient 12-month period; and for what purpose those funds were used.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, fine receipts in the financial year 2005-06 for the 38 safety camera partnerships operating in the national safety camera programme for England and Wales apparently totalled £114,625,360. Under the then netting-off funding arrangements, safety camera partnerships reclaimed £99,542,900 in expenditure, which was directly attributed to the prevention, detection and enforcement of offences. The surplus of £15,082,460 was returned to the Consolidated Fund.
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I am greatly obliged to the noble Lord for that reply. What contribution does that have to the maintenance of road safety? Is this money usefully spent in that regard, or is it better going back to the Consolidated Fund as he described?
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Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the sole purpose of speed cameras is casualty reduction. Cameras are not cash-driven. The impact of cameras is clear. The national safety camera programme evaluation report, based on four years’ experience and published in December 2005, found a 42 per cent reduction in people killed or seriously injured at camera sites across the 38 partnership areas. That means about 1,745 fewer people killed or seriously injured per annum, including 100 fewer deaths. The value of the cameras is self-evident from those data.
Viscount Tenby: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the main concern lies not with the use of speed cameras, with which I agree, but in the reduction in recent years in the number of officers in traffic divisions across the United Kingdom, as recently reported in the press? This results not only in a diminution of the discretion available in the prosecution of speeding offences, but in the fact that rank bad drivers, who daily do things like tailgating, dangerous overtaking and driving while holding a mobile phone, are not dealt with. Would he pass on to the chief officers of police the anxiety in this country on the matter? As the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, did, I declare an interest in this matter—on the other side of the fence, being a retired magistrate.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, one has to look at this conundrum in the round: enforcement cameras are only one of the tools available for enforcement. We—the Government—are clear that dedicated traffic officers and technology both have a vital part to play in reducing excessive speeds. There can be no doubt—the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, gave full voice to this—that speed cameras are effective. They operate as a continuous deterrent, freeing up police time for other duties, including, in particular, dealing with the precise problems that the noble Viscount, Lord Tenby, referred to. I share the noble Viscount’s concerns about tailgating and so on. However, more people are being monitored for speeding. The approach is very effective and is clearly reducing the number of deaths and serious injuries on our roads, particularly among the most vulnerable—young people.
Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, I hope that the Minister will allow me to repeat the figures from Thames Valley, which are much more up to date than his. They show that 60 per cent of the money collected goes to the police to run the system, 30 per cent goes to road safety and 10 per cent goes to the courts; virtually nothing is left over for the Consolidated Fund. Does he agree that a lot of the publicity generated in this regard comes from people who do not like speed cameras, to whom the simple answer is, “Don’t speed”?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I completely agree with the noble Lord: the cameras are highly effective—they are doing their job—and that is why people do not like them.
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Lord Berkeley: My Lords, my noble friend said that there had been a 42 per cent reduction in the number of people killed or seriously injured over four years. Is that not an argument for having many more speed cameras so that that reduction continues?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, it is obviously up to the partnership areas to determine whether they feel that it is appropriate to have additional speed cameras, which are a very effective tool. Partnership areas simply make the case; if they put the cameras in place and they are effective where there are particular problems, we should all be pleased.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, why is it that the Minister has a national figure and the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, has a figure for the Thames partnership, but when the then Road Safety Bill was debated we were told that no local cameras could be identified individually? The local press in High Wycombe in Buckinghamshire—I have never had a ticket there, so I am not declaring an interest—was told that, under the Freedom of Information Act, it is not entitled to information about the income generated from a camera. That camera does not satisfy local people—they consider that its positioning is not to do with road safety.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, my guess is—I do not know for sure—that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, gets his information via his local authority and police authority. I see locally produced data; it is beneficial to have them published locally because they help to crank up the deterrent effect.
Palace of Westminster: Exterior Cleaning
2.58 pm
Lord Janner of Braunstone asked the Chairman of Committees:
What progress has been made in the cleaning of the exterior of the Palace of Westminster; and when this work will be completed.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara): My Lords, the programme to clean the exterior of the palace, which began in 1981, entered its final phase in 1995 with the commencement of work to the internal courtyards. Work has been completed on four courtyards, including Speaker’s Court and Royal Court, which are the two largest courtyards. The next phase of work is planned to include Cloister Court, Star Chamber Court, Chancellor’s Court and State Officers’ Court. Commencement of this phase of work will be subject to the prioritisation requirements of the parliamentary works programme.
Lord Janner of Braunstone: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. What he really means is that he does not know when the work will start on the inner courtyard, so the situation on that matter is normal. Does he agree that parts of the walls of those
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