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Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, it is not the role of this House to give way. The role of this House is to consider legislation, to amend it as necessary, and, if it believes in its amendments, to stick to them. After that, if this House continues to believe that its amendments are sound and reasonable, it has every right to stick to them. It is the role of the House of the Commons, if it continues to disagree with a Lords Amendment, to go to the Parliament Act. If that is not the case, then this House is no more than a debating Chamber. Does the noble Baroness not understand that?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, in the years that I have had the privilege to stand at this Dispatch Box, I have learnt many things about this House and its ability to change legislation, to improve legislation and to ask the other place to think again. I have also learnt that this House has a pool of wisdom into which it dips and usually it knows when enough is enough. It is for this House to decide whether today we have reached a position where the House says, "Enough is enough". We have an opportunity to go on and on and on. The advantage is that my period at the Dispatch Box will, I hope, get shorter and shorter and shorter, and maybe we will do this the quicker. For now, we have had a full debate. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Saatchi, I have not tried to weary your Lordships
 
20 Mar 2006 : Column 41
 
with all the substantive reasons why we should not go down this road, with which I have wearied your Lordships on the past three occasions. I have taken those as read. I invite the House to say that, as the House of Commons has spoken so clearly, we—not being deaf—have heard it, and we are now content for its amendments to stand and ours to rest.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this fascinating debate. It has covered some weighty matters. But I must immediately make plain why, despite the, as ever, articulate and persuasive words of the noble Baroness, I disagree with her flatly. She said that Bill after Bill has made clear that this is voluntary. We are not talking about Bills before the last general election; we are talking about the Government's manifesto last year. It really is playing Humpty Dumpty to pretend that the expression "rolled out on a voluntary basis in connection with passports" can conceivably be construed as compulsory. As I tried to indicate two stages ago, the word "voluntary" qualifies ID cards, not passports. I did not want to weary the House with the matter, but the noble Lord, Lord Saatchi, has put it very succinctly. The first point of the noble Lord, Lord Carter, was that this is a manifesto Bill. This is manifestly not a manifesto Bill. That is the point.

Lord Carter: My Lords, all I meant is that it is a Bill that was mentioned in the manifesto.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, it was indeed mentioned in the manifesto, and how was it mentioned? It was mentioned as voluntary, not compulsory.

I have a complete sense of the superiority of the other place. I think we are lucky to be here at all, and we try to do a good job. We are subservient to the elected House. However, when I see the elected House coming to this place and saying to the country that that manifesto commitment does not mean voluntary, it means compulsory or quasi-compulsory, then I believe—and I hope that noble Lords will not think I am being pompous—that we have a duty to say, "No, it doesn't". Surely noble Lords will accept that we live in times when the public's sense of the probity and honour of the Houses of Parliament is not at its highest. Issues are swirling around—I am certainly not going to make political capital of them—that are causing great angst within this Palace and beyond. I have stuck to my guns principally because I think it thoroughly disreputable and, I am afraid to say, dishonest of us to pretend that "voluntary" meant "compulsory".

This amendment is not the sort of cosmetic amendment that the Commons put back to us; this is a genuine amendment. I return to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Carter, that this would take the matter beyond the Parliament Act. Of course that is so. We are trying to reach a compromise that will mean that the Government will not exercise the Parliament Act. However, as many have said, the first ID card is
 
20 Mar 2006 : Column 42
 
not to be issued until, on best estimates, 2009. We know jolly well what happens in this country when huge computer schemes are put before us. We also know why we have never been told the costs. It would be the greatest stone about any government's neck to dare to estimate the setting-up and integration costs of this uniquely massive scheme.

I shall not weary your Lordships any more, except to say that I am extremely grateful for the contributions of the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, and the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong of Ilminster. I am only too happy to put heads together with him if we get this vote through today; there will be no chance to do so if we do not. I do not pretend that this is the best amendment available, but I sincerely and genuinely tabled this as a compromise amendment. The issues that underlie it are of great purport and importance. We are at a tipping point. The surveillance and compulsion being thrust little by little and drip by drip on the public of this country need to stop. This is it. I wish to test the opinion of the House.

4.56 pm

On Question, Whether the said Motion (A1) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 211; Not-Contents, 175.


Division No. 1


CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alliance, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bell, L.
Blaker, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Cameron of Dillington, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chidgey, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
De Mauley, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dykes, L.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Fritchie, B.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glasgow, E.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goodlad, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kalms, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Ludford, B.
Lyell of Markyate, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mawhinney, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Moran, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Owen, L.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Patten of Barnes, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Quinton, L.
Ramsbotham, L.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Rix, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Steinberg, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Tyler, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Windlesham, L.
Young of Hornsey, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Adonis, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. [Lord President.]
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Bilston, L.
Birt, L.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Chelmsford, Bp.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corston, B.
Crawley, B.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dearing, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Greengross, B.
Gregson, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Joffe, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kinnock, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Leitch, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Mitchell, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Moonie, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Ouseley, L.
Patel, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Robertson of Port Ellen, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Simon, V.
Slim, V.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tanlaw, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turnbull, L.
Varley, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.


Resolved in the affirmative, and Motion agreed to accordingly.


 
20 Mar 2006 : Column 45
 

On Question, Motion A, as amended, agreed to.

Bill returned to the Commons with amendments.


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