---

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for his reply, and to all those who have spoken in this debate. The contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Swynnerton, was a wonderful illustration of precisely where Section 44 is not being used properly. I remind your Lordships of something I said at the beginning; that under Section 45 of the Act the power conferred by an authorisation may be exercised only for the purpose of searching for articles of a kind that could be used in connection with terrorism. I fail to understand how, in the circumstances described by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, the police officer could have thought he was likely to find any articles concerned with terrorism. That is an unpublicised situation. When we deal with the position of Mr Wolfgang or anyone else who is simply a protester, the matter becomes even more absurd.

The purpose of this amendment is not to alter Section 44 in any drastic way. Indeed, I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Harris, would happily accept subsections (1), (2) and (3); it is only the question of publicity that he objects to, and I will deal with that in a moment. The amendment would bring the section back to the purposes for which it was originally designed, as stated by the then Home Secretary, Mr Straw, when he introduced the Bill in 1999.

I said that I would say a word about publicity. It is a fundamental principle that when we are abroad, in England and Wales, we know the law that affects us. We are entitled as citizens to know whether there are any specific provisions that give the police powers in the area where we are. It is incumbent upon the Secretary of State to declare the area to which the special powers apply. No one could be more concerned about the protection of the public than I am, but I do not believe it is helpful, or that it was the intent of this Act when it was passed, for whole areas—and there may be whole cities outside London; we do not know, because they are not declared—to be subject to these special powers permanently, rolling on, 28 days after 28 days, without any obvious consideration being given on a monthly basis to whether they are necessary.

The word I take from the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, whose amendment was the precursor to what I am saying—I am merely a follower in her footsteps—is "alienation", to which the Minister also referred. It is a balance. Everything we have dealt with in the Terrorism Act ultimately turns out to be a balance between the liberty of the people of
 
1 Feb 2006 : Column 241
 
this country and the need to protect them. I think the Act as originally drafted, in its original intention, struck a reasonable balance, but it has been misused in the way that I have indicated. Therefore, I seek to test the opinion of the House.

6.37 pm

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 14) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 109; Not-Contents, 124.

Division No. 3

CONTENTS
Addington, L. [Teller]
Ahmed, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Blaker, L.
Bottomley of Nettlestone, B.
Byford, B.
Cameron of Dillington, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chidgey, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Courtown, E.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Eccles, V.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Garden, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Hylton, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Listowel, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Moynihan, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Peterborough, Bp.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Tyler, L.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Waddington, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Adams of Craigielea, B.
Adonis, L.
Amos, B. [Lord President.]
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Boothroyd, B.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chorley, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Corston, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Kilclooney, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Murphy, B.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. Albans, Bp.
Sawyer, L.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Soley, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.


Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

 
1 Feb 2006 : Column 242
 

6.49 pm

Lord Bassam of Brighton : My Lords, it gives me great pleasure to move that this Bill do now pass.

Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Bassam of Brighton.)

On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons with amendments.
 
1 Feb 2006 : Column 243
 

Natural Environment and Rural Communities Bill

6.50 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Bach): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair.]

Clause 2 [General purpose]:

---