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Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, I took his slight barb that there had been no reception of any notice from me that I would raise the issue of women. I should have thought that the Government, being so mindful of women's issues, would have had that before them in any event. The reason I raise it today, not having raised it before, is that it has only just been drawn to my attention how people going to such camps frequently use women as cover. It is important that the Government have a view on whether such a woman would have a proper defence.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I suspect that the noble Baroness's understanding of what she described as informal camps is accurate. She clearly is knowledgeable on the subject and knows much more about it than I. No doubt such a defence could be offered in those circumstances, but that does not deter me from the view that we have expressed before on this amendment and how it has been argued by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. We clearly have a difference of view, and no doubt the noble Lord will seek to ensure that that difference of view is expressed by your Lordships' House.

Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt again, but unless there is a possibility of a defence for such a woman, then she will be convicted for being there in attendance with her husband. The expectation seems to be that she should leave and notify the authorities. That is unrealistic, given our understanding of the situation that often prevails in relationships in Pakistani families. It is important for the Government to address that, so that
 
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we do not find women in an impossible situation before the courts were they to be present, but unwillingly, in such a camp.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the noble Baroness is clearly entitled to her view and interpretation of how the legislation will work. We happen to disagree with that.

Lord Goodhart: My Lords, it seems that the Government's position combines the risk of serious damage to journalism with the absence of any benefit whatever to our national security. I want to read another passage from what John Simpson wrote. He said:

Unfortunately, the Government have shown that their answer is "Surely yes". In those circumstances, I must take the opinion of the House.

5.23 pm

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 12) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 79; Not-Contents, 145.


Division No. 2


CONTENTS

Addington, L. [Teller]
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Cameron of Dillington, L.
Chidgey, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dykes, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Garden, L.
Goodhart, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hooson, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Hylton, L.
Joffe, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jopling, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Moynihan, L.
Murphy, B.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Tyler, L.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Adams of Craigielea, B.
Adonis, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. [Lord President.]
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Bridges, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Corston, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Kilclooney, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Laird, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
May of Oxford, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Moser, L.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Palmer, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rogan, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Soley, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.


Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.


 
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5.34 pm

Clause 21 [Grounds of proscription]:

The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lyell): My Lords, Amendment No. 13 stands in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. I should advise the House that there is a mistake in the amendment. It should read:

Lord Thomas of Gresford moved Amendment No. 13:


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