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Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I invite the Minister to consider the language of, say, sale of goods legislation, which is built around certain broad concepts, of which true and fair is but another example. Is it not one of the virtues of the amendment that it does not go into yards of small print about what true and fair is, but ultimately leaves it to the decision of a court, if the matter gets that far, which of course it rarely would? I invite him to wonder whether the argument that he outlined should not be rewound and played back the other way.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the noble Lord is perfectly at liberty to invite me to do that, but I am equally at liberty to reject that supposition. That is what I shall continue to do. The argument that I have made is probably more accurate than his, but I shall have to rest my case on that.

Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who spoke in support of the amendment; namely, my noble friends Lord Sainsbury and Lord Caithness, and the noble Lord, Lord Phillips.

I find the Minister's explanation extraordinary. The concept of true and fair is well understood. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, explained the background of the
18 Oct 2005 : Column 727
thinking to it. Anyone who has any corporate experience and has signed off accounts will be perfectly clear on what true and fair is. The phrase is in common use in commercial practice in corporate law and in the preparation of every set of accounts that I have ever signed off. The Government say that they will reject the amendment, despite what we have said about regulatory activities being proportionate, accountable, consistent, transparent and targeted—that accounts should be prepared to reflect the differing natures and sizes of charities. Even at the end of nine months and on the 14th day of our consideration, I find myself speechless that the Minister can do that. Therefore, I intend to test the opinion of the House.

6 pm

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 102) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 114; Not-Contents, 130

Division No. 2


Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Attlee, E.
Barker, B.
Best, L.
Biffen, L.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller.]
Craigavon, V.
De Mauley, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dykes, L.
Elles, B.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Ferrers, E.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Garden, L.
Glentoran, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hooson, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laidlaw, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Murphy, B.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parkinson, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Razzall, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Sainsbury of Preston Candover, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B. [Teller.]
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Sterling of Plaistow, L.
Swinfen, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tonge, B.
Tordoff, L.
Trenchard, V.
Tyler, L.
Ullswater, V.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wilcox, B.
Windlesham, L.


Adams of Craigielea, B.
Adonis, L.
Amos, B. [Lord President of the Council.]
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Clark of Calton, B.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller.]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Golding, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grocott, L. [Teller.]
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kinnock, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Macaulay of Bragar, L.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Parekh, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prosser, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Robertson of Port Ellen, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Stratford, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williamson of Horton,L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

18 Oct 2005 : Column 729

Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendment No. 103:

"( ) Omit subsection (3)."

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendment No. 104:

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the amendment has been suggested by parliamentary counsel to correct an earlier drafting error. Like other noble Lords I wish that these things did not happen, but from time to time they do. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendment No. 105:

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the amendment is needed solely to reflect a repeal made to the Charities Act 1993 by the Charities and Trustee Investment (Scotland) Act 2005, which received Royal Assent shortly after Committee stage of this Bill in your Lordships' House. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

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