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Lord Goodhart: My Lords, the noble Baroness has made a very persuasive attempt to put this off one more time. I am afraid that, for a number of reasons, I do not find it possible to accept that. First, it is contrary to a principle of the House—although it is a principle that is often broken—that voting should not normally be deferred to Third Reading.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I was making the offer because the noble Lord has, I trust, been away on a fantastic holiday and was not able to discuss these issues with me in any great detail. If the noble Lord wishes to vote, that is fine, but I believe I have answered the questions.

Lord Goodhart: My Lords, the second reason why I do not wish to delay the matter is that the noble Baroness has given no indication of any willingness to consider this issue in detail. Thirdly, if the amendment were passed by your Lordships' House, further negotiations on it would not be stopped. It would be impossible to restore to paragraph 4 of Schedule 3 the words that are removed from it, but it would be perfectly possible to discuss issues such as requiring a formal application for leave to appeal to be made so that cases that do not raise appropriate issues would not require a full hearing. Certainly I should be perfectly prepared, as I am sure would the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, to be involved in any discussions about such issues.

Nothing that the noble Baroness has said has really gone to the root of the principle behind the matter. The views of the senior judiciary are interesting, but not, I think, binding. It is hard to see in any event why an additional flood of appeals is likely if this amendment is passed, when there is no evidence of abuse of the present right of appeal which has existed since 1999. So, I do not find that a very persuasive argument. And of course the views of the judiciary are contrary to the view of the Law Society.

There will be many cases, probably most, where there will be no grounds for changing a decision made below because such a case is simply a matter of mathematics, but, as I tried to show—and hope I did show—in moving the amendment, there will be cases on eligibility as well as on the interest of justice that
 
17 Oct 2005 : Column 590
 
need judicial consideration. It is plainly appropriate that it should happen. Therefore, I shall seek the opinion of the House.

5.21 pm

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 3) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 145; Not-Contents, 137


Division No. 1


CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Biffen, L.
Blaker, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
De Mauley, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Eccles, V.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Flather, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Glasgow, E.
Goodhart, L.
Goodlad, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Kalms, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laidlaw, L.
Laird, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Lyell of Markyate, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Plumb, L.
Ramsbotham, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trenchard, V.
Ullswater, V.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Adams of Craigielea, B.
Adonis, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B. [Lord President of the Council.]
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Bilston, L.
Blood, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Calton, B.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Condon, L.
Corston, B.
Crawley, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Drayson, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Moonie, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prosser, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Snape, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Stratford, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Hornsey, B.


Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.


 
17 Oct 2005 : Column 592
 
5.32 pm

Baroness Ashton of Upholland moved Amendment No. 4:

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 2 [Rights to representation: financial eligibility]:


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