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Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, the noble Lord is pitting his judgment against the accumulated experience of all the disability organisations. As my noble friend said, they feel happy with 2020 in the
 
28 Feb 2005 : Column 68
 
Bill and a robust exemption procedure to deal with unforeseen situations—as well as those that are foreseen, such as the London Underground, the Glasgow underground, the heritage lines and the charter service. All that will be imperilled if the opposition amendments go through.

Surely Opposition Peers cannot be so confident in their judgment that they would risk closing down all those lines, risk challenging access to the Underground and the like because we will not be able to specify it, and risk what they would do to charter services. They would do that flying absolutely in the face of what the disability world wants, knowing that as parliamentarians they not only have an annual report, as my noble friend said, but have a second bite every time a proposed exemption comes before them.

Why are the Opposition so afraid to trust our judgment or that of those who succeed us in five, 10 or 15 years on whether an exemption is robust? Why are they saying, "We know best what they may or may not be called on to judge in 2020"? That is an extraordinary statement to make about future parliamentarians. I certainly do not agree with it. Given that the disability world is behind us on the matter, that this is the appropriate way to go forward, and that Parliament will have full opportunities for scrutiny, I hope that noble Lords will accept the Government's position and not pursue that advanced by the Opposition.

Lord Higgins: My Lords, I have moved an amendment to the government amendment which effectively means that there will not be powers to create exemptions after 2020. I spelt out in considerable detail why I believed that it was the right way to proceed. I stress again that, if this amendment is not carried, the situation with regard to the Government having powers to make exemptions will, after 2020, be precisely the same as before then.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I repeat that the Government will not have the power to make exemptions: Parliament will.

Lord Higgins: Fine, my Lords, Parliament will. Yet the government of the day in Parliament will still have the power to make exemptions—in exactly the same way as the Government themselves can, at present, put proposals to Parliament for making exemptions. The effect is quite clearly that 2020 is not a deadline on which we can rely.

The Minister referred to various outside organisations which have, throughout these proceedings, been immensely helpful. I agree entirely with the points made from the Liberal Democrat Benches. We have made huge progress in improving the Bill. However, there is also a strong feeling that this is probably the most important individual issue in the Bill. We need to be certain of having a deadline which will be a real one. Otherwise, as 2020 approaches, Parliament will be told that while there are, of course, powers in the Bill to make these exemptions, there are one or two things which need to be sorted out and that those will take a bit longer to sort out, and so on. While powers remain to put the case
 
28 Feb 2005 : Column 69
 
for exemptions to Parliament—and, of course, I was not for one moment suggesting that the Government are absolute—that may be the case.

With great respect to the outside organisations, they have not fully understood the implications of having no real and effective deadline. It means that, as the noble Lord, Lord Addington, has pointed out, the situation will continue to drift—whereas, if there is to be certainty on these matters, it is important that we should establish it. There is no reason at all not to do so. No doubt, in 2020, further views will prevail. However, at all events, we will have set a firm framework, which the various interests will know cannot be altered merely by a statutory instrument. Therefore, I with to test the opinion of the House.

6.53 p.m.

On Question, Whether Amendment No. 7, as an amendment to Amendment No. 6, shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 118; Not-Contents, 122.

Division No. 3

CONTENTS
Addington, L. [Teller]
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blaker, L.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dykes, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elton, L.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Fearn, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kalms, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laidlaw, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lindsay, E.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Plumb, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Quinton, L.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stewartby, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trumpington, B.
Waddington, L.
Walmsley, B.
Windlesham, L.
Wolfson, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Borrie, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L. [Teller]
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goudie, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Kilclooney, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Listowel, E.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Monson, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Robertson of Port Ellen, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Snape, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Tenby, V.
Thornton, B.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Walpole, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.


Resolved in the negative, and Amendment No. 7, as an amendment to Amendment No. 6, disagreed to accordingly.

 
28 Feb 2005 : Column 71
 

On Question, Amendment No. 6 agreed to.

7.2 p.m.

[Amendment No. 8 not moved.]

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