House of Lords Journal 236 (Session 2002-03)


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Thursday 23 October 2003

The House met at eleven o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Falconer of Thoroton, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Arran, E.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Biffen, L.
Billingham, B.
Birt, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.

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Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Boyce, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brett, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burlison, L.
Burns, L.
Buscombe, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carter, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chan, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cockfield, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cooke of Islandreagh, L.
Cooke of Thorndon, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crawley, B.
Crickhowell, L.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Eames, L.
Eatwell, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elder, L.
Elles, B.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gale, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Glentoran, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goschen, V.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Healey, L.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hobhouse of Woodborough, L.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hylton, L.
Imbert, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Joffe, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicholls of Birkenhead, L.
Nicol, B.
Noakes, B.

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Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O’Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Ouseley, L.
Oxburgh, L.
Oxford, Bp.
Palmer, L.
Parekh, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Portsmouth, Bp.
Prashar, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Quirk, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rosslyn, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Sainsbury of Preston Candover, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Foscote, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sewel, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheffield, Bp.
Sheldon, L.
Sheppard of Didgemere, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stallard, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Steyn, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tanlaw, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Ullswater, V.
Varley, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Sheffield.

1.Journals—The 235th volume of the Journals (Session 2001–02), with an index, was laid on the Table by the Clerk of the Parliaments.

Papers

2.Command Papers—The following papers were presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Urban Economy—Government Response to the Report of the House of Commons Select Committee on the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, Housing, Planning, Local Government and the Regions on the Evening Economy and the Urban Renaissance;
 (5971)
2.Orders and Decorations—Report by the Ministry of Defence on the Naval General Service Medal and the General Service Medal (Army and Royal Air Force) for service in the Suez Canal Zone.
 (5999)
3.Negative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Education (Revocation of Spent Provisions) (England) Regulations 2003, laid under the Education Act 1996;
 (2694)
2.Road Traffic (Permitted Parking Area and Special Parking Area) (Metropolitan Borough of Wirral) Order 2003, laid under the Road Traffic Act 1991.
 (2711)

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Public Business

4.Human Rights—It was moved by the Chairman of Committees that the quorum of the Select Committee appointed to join with the Committee of the Commons as the Joint Committee on Human Rights be two; the motion was agreed to and a message was ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.
5.Gambling—It was moved by the Chairman of Committees that the Order of the House of 9th September appointing a Select Committee to join with a Committee of the Commons to consider and report on any clauses of a draft Gambling Bill presented to both Houses by a Minister of the Crown be amended by leaving out the words “within the United Kingdom”; the motion was agreed to and a message was ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.
6.Criminal Justice Bill—It was moved by the Baroness Scotland of Asthal that the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order—
Clauses 1 to 11
Schedule 1
Clauses 12 to 26
Schedule 2
Clauses 27 to 39
Schedule 3
Clauses 40 to 60
Schedule 4
Clauses 61 to 97
Schedule 5
Clauses 98 to 118
Schedule 6
Clauses 119 to 161
Schedule 7
Clause 162
Schedule 8
Clauses 163 to 169
Schedule 9
Clause 170
Schedule 10
Clauses 171 to 175
Schedule 11
Clause 176
Schedule 12
Clauses 177 to 201
Schedule 13
Clauses 202 to 206
Schedule 14
Clauses 207 to 211
Schedules 15 and 16
Clause 212
Schedule 17
Clauses 213 to 221
Schedule 18
Clauses 222 to 247
Schedule 19
Clauses 248 to 254
Schedule 20
Clauses 255 to 256
Schedule 21
Clause 257
Schedule 22
Clause 258
Schedules 23 and 24
Clauses 259 to 261
Schedule 25
Clause 262
Schedule 26
Clauses 263 to 276
Schedule 27
Clauses 277 to 280
Schedule 28
Clauses 281 to 298
Schedule 29
Clauses 299 to 301
Schedule 30
Clauses 302 to 305
Schedule 31
Clauses 306 and 307
Schedule 32
Clause 308
Schedule 33
Clause 309
Schedule 34
Clauses 310 to 314;

the motion was agreed to.

7.Female Genital Mutilation Bill—The bill was read a third time and passed.
8.Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; amendments were agreed to; the House was resumed and the bill was reported with amendments; it was ordered that the bill be printed as amended. (HL Bill 113)
9.Anti-social Behaviour Bill—The report was received; amendments were moved and (by leave of the House) withdrawn; further consideration on report was adjourned.

The House was adjourned during pleasure.

The House was resumed.

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Judicial Business

10.Regina v. Bristol Magistrates’ Court and others (Appellants) ex parte Junttan Oy (Respondents) (Criminal Appeal from Her Majesty’s High Court of Justice)—
11.Regina v. Bristol Magistrates’ Court and others (Respondents) ex parte Junttan Oy (Appellants) (Criminal Appeal from Her Majesty’s High Court of Justice)—

(Conjoined Appeals)—

It was moved by the Lord Nicholls of Birkenhead, That the 61st Report from the Appellate Committee be agreed to; the motion was agreed to. It was ordered and adjudged that the appeal of the Health and Safety Executive be allowed; that the Order of the Divisional Court of the Queen’s Bench Division of the High Court of 19th March 2002 be set aside and that the decision of the District Judge sitting at Bristol Magistrates’ Court of 22nd June 2001 be restored; that the first certified question be answered “The Health and Safety Executive was entitled to prosecute Junttan Oy under section 6 of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974.”; that the respondents do pay to the appellants their costs in the Divisional Court and before this House, the amount of such last-mentioned costs to be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties; that the second certified question be answered “On the facts there was no failure to follow the safeguard procedure.”; that the appeal of Junttan Oy be dismissed; and that the question of costs in the second appeal be adjourned sine die. [2003] UKHL 55

12.Her Majesty’s Commissioners of Customs and Excise (Respondents) v. Sinclair Collis Limited (Appellants)—The Cause was further considered, pursuant to the Order of the Lords of Appeal, sitting in the name of the House of Lords during the dissolution of Parliament by virtue of a Writing by Her Majesty The Queen under Her Majesty’s Sign Manual dated the 14th day of May 2001, of 7th June 2001 whereby certain questions were referred to the Court of Justice of the European Communities, the Judgment of that Court having been given on 12th June 2003; it was ordered and adjudged that the Order of the Court of Appeal of 23rd June 1999 and the Order of Mr Justice Lightman of 9th July 1998 be set aside and the Decision of the Manchester Value Added Tax and Duties Tribunal of 6 June 1997 be restored; and that the respondents do pay to the appellants their costs before the Value Added Tax and Duties Tribunal, before Mr Justice Lightman, in the Court of Appeal, before the Court of Justice of the European Communities and before this House, the amount of such costs in the Court of Justice and before this House to be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties. [2003] UKHL 56
13.Regina v. London Borough of Barnet (Respondents) ex parte G (FC) (Appellant)—
14.Regina v. London Borough of Lambeth (Respondents) ex parte W (FC) (Appellant)—
15.Regina v. London Borough of Lambeth (Respondents) ex parte A (FC) (Appellant)—

(Conjoined Appeals)

It was moved by the Lord Nicholls of Birkenhead, That the 62nd Report from the Appellate Committee be agreed to; the motion was agreed to. It was ordered and adjudged that, in the appeal of G, the Order of the Court of Appeal of 11th April 2001 be affirmed and the appeal dismissed with costs; and that the amounts thereof, if any, to be paid by the appellant and to be paid out of the Community Legal Service Fund be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments in accordance with section 11 of the Access to Justice Act 1999; that, in the appeal of W, the Order of the Court of Appeal of 3rd May 2002 be affirmed and the appeal dismissed with costs; and that the amounts thereof, if any, to be paid by the appellant and to be paid out of the Community Legal Service Fund be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments in accordance with section 11 of the Access to Justice Act 1999; that, in the appeal of A, the Order of the Court of Appeal of 5th November 2001 be affirmed and the appeal dismissed with costs; and that the amounts thereof, if any, to be paid by the appellant and to be paid out of the Community Legal Service Fund be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments in accordance with section 11 of the Access to Justice Act 1999; and that the costs of the appellants be taxed in accordance with the Access to Justice Act 1999. [2003] UKHL 57

16.Davidson (AP) (Respondent) v. Scottish Ministers (Appellants) (Scotland)—The appeal was set down for hearing and referred to an Appellate Committee.

The House was adjourned during pleasure.

The House was resumed.

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Public Business

17.Anti-social Behaviour Bill—The bill was further considered on report; amendments were moved and (by leave of the House) withdrawn; amendments were disagreed to (see division lists 1 and 2); amendments were agreed to; further consideration on report was adjourned after amendment 56.

The House was adjourned at twenty-four minutes before eight o’clock
to Monday next, half-past two o’clock.


DIVISIONS

ANTI-SOCIAL BEHAVIOUR BILL

Division No. 1

It was moved by the Baroness Hamwee, in Clause 13, page 10, line 8, after “or” to insert “serious or repeated”; which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the House divided:

Contents..............37

Not-Contents..............87

CONTENTS

Addington, L. [Teller]
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Clement-Jones, L. [Teller]
Dholakia, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hylton, L.
Laird, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Maddock, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Newby, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Razzall, L.
Rennard, L.
Roper, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shrewsbury, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tope, L.
Walmsley, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Brett, L.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Condon, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
(Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fowler, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harrison, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Judd, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Morgan, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Stallard, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Turner of Camden, B.
Warner, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.

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Division No. 2

It was moved by the Baroness Walmsley, in Clause 30, page 26, line 12, to leave out “presence or”; which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the House divided:

Contents..............26

Not-Contents..............64

CONTENTS

Addington, L. [Teller]
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Elton, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Morgan, L.
Newby, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Rennard, L.
Roper, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tope, L.
Walmsley, B. [Teller]
Weatherill, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
(Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harrison, L.
Hayman, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hylton, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Parekh, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.