House of Lords Journal 236 (Session 2002-03)


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Thursday 9 October 2003

The House met at eleven o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Falconer of Thoroton, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Arran, E.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Bagri, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Biffen, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Blood, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carey of Clifton, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carter, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chan, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cockfield, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cooke of Thorndon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crawley, B.
Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Eatwell, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elder, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Emerton, B.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Feldman, L.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fitt, L.
Fookes, B.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gale, B.

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Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gavron, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Glentoran, L.
Golding, B.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L.
Habgood, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
Inge, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Islwyn, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Judd, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Laming, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Moser, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O’Cathain, B.
O’Neill of Bengarve, B.
Onslow, E.
Orme, L.
Oxburgh, L.
Oxford, Bp.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prashar, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quirk, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sewel, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheldon, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stewartby, L.
Steyn, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strange, B.
Swinfen, L.
Tanlaw, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tombs, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Ullswater, V.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.

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Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Wilson of Dinton, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Winston, L.
Worcester, Bp.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Worcester.

Judicial Business
1.Regina v. Police Complaints Authority (Respondents) ex parte Green (FC) (Appellant)—The petition of Andrew Lawrence praying for leave to intervene in the said appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee.
2.Appeal Committee—The 80th Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Order was made—

Regina v. Her Majesty’s Coroner for the Western District of Somerset (Respondent) and another (Appellant) ex parte Middleton (FC) (Respondent)—That the petition of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission that they might be heard or otherwise intervene in the said appeal be allowed to the extent that they may lodge written submissions only.

3.Appeal Committee—The 81st Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Order was made—

Regina v. Special Adjudicator (Respondent) ex parte Ullah (FC) (Appellant)—That the petition of the National Council for Civil Liberties and the Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants that they might be heard or otherwise intervene in the said appeal be allowed.

4.Appeal Committee—The 82nd Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Order was made—

Jindal Iron and Steel Co Limited and others (Appellants) and others v. Islamic Solidarity Shipping Company Jordan Inc (Respondents)—That the petition of the appellants praying that the time for lodging the statement and appendix and setting down the cause for hearing might be extended to 9th October be allowed and the time further extended to 16th October.

5.Appeal Committee—The 83rd Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Order was made—

Donoghue (FC) (Petitioner) v. Folkestone Properties Limited (Respondents)—That leave to appeal be refused; that the costs of the petitioner be taxed in accordance with the Access to Justice Act 1999; and that the respondents be at liberty to apply for their costs in accordance with direction 5.1(c); and, if the application is granted, that the amount thereof be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties.

Papers

6.Negative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Teacher Training Agency (Additional Functions) (No. 3) (England) Order 2003, laid under the Education Act 1994;
 (2564)
2.Pensions Increase (Pension Schemes for David Calvert–Smith) Regulations 2003, laid under the Pensions (Increase) Act 1971;
 (2623)
3.Export Control Act 2002 (Commencement & Transitional Provisions) Order 2003, laid under the Export Control Act 2002;
 (2629)
4. (i)Legal and Advice and Assistance (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2003—(—)
(ii)Legal Aid (General) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2003—(—)
 laid under the Legal Aid, Advice and Assistance (Northern Ireland) Order 1981.
7.Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1. (i) Democratic Republic of the Congo (United Nations Sanctions) (Isle of Man) Order 2003—
 (2614)
(ii) Democratic Republic of the Congo (United Nations Sanctions) (Channel Islands) Order 2003—(2616)
 laid under the United Nations Act 1946;
2.Democratic Republic of the Congo (Restrictive Measures) (Overseas Territories) Order 2003, laid under the Saint Helena Act 1833.
 (2627)

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Public Business

8.Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; an amendment was agreed to; an amendment was agreed to (see division list); the House was resumed.

The House was adjourned during pleasure.

The House was resumed.

9.Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; amendments were agreed to; the House was resumed after amendment 89.
10.Employers’ liability insurance—The Lord Harrison asked Her Majesty’s Government what measures they will take to alleviate the recent rise in employers’ liability insurance, required for small and medium-sized enterprises by insurance companies; after debate, the question was answered by the Baroness Hollis of Heigham.

The House was adjourned at sixteen minutes before nine o’clock
till tomorrow, eleven o’clock.


DIVISION

HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE (COMMUNITY HEALTH AND STANDARDS) BILL

It was moved by the Earl Howe, in Schedule 1, page 109, line 17, at end to insert “using an electoral system to be specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State”; which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the Committee divided:

Contents..............92

Not-Contents..............76

CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chan, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Dholakia, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Emerton, B.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fookes, B.
Freeman, L.
Glentoran, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hylton, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
Maddock, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
O’Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Rawlings, B.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stewartby, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tenby, V.
Tordoff, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warnock, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Worcester, Bp.

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NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Lockwood, B.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rooker, L.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Warner, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.