House of Lords Journal 236 (Session 2002-03)


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Wednesday 17 September 2003

The House met at half-past two o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Falconer of Thoroton, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Arran, E.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Bach, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Best, L.
Bhatia, L.
Biffen, L.
Billingham, B.
Birt, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Bowness, L.
Boyce, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carey of Clifton, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Carter, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chandos, V.
Chester, Bp.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.

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Cockfield, L.
Coe, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colwyn, L.
Cooke of Thorndon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crawley, B.
Crickhowell, L.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Eatwell, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elder, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elles, B.
Elton, L.
Emerton, B.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Feldman, L.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Flowers, L.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Golding, B.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goschen, V.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Hereford, Bp.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hylton, L.
Inge, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Joffe, L.
Jopling, L.
Jordan, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Levy, L.
Lewis of Newnham, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Manchester, Bp.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Moser, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Newcastle, Bp.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicholls of Birkenhead, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O’Cathain, B.
O’Neill of Bengarve, B.
Onslow, E.
Ouseley, L.
Owen, L.
Palmer, L.
Parekh, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

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Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Quinton, L.
Quirk, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rosslyn, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. Edmundsbury and Ipswich, Bp.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stern, B.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tanlaw, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tombs, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trumpington, B.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Ullswater, V.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Waverley, V.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wilson of Dinton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Worcester, Bp.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of St Edmundsbury and Ipswich.

Papers

1.Command Papers—The following papers were presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Finance—Treasury Minutes on the 19th to the 21st and the 23rd to the 25th Reports from the Committee of Public Accounts;
 (5961)
2.Transfer of Prisoners—Agreement between the United Kingdom and Cuba on the Transfer of Prisoners;
 (5970)
3.Electoral Reform—Government Response to the Report of the Electoral Commission: The Shape of Elections to Come—A Strategic Evaluation of the 2003 Electoral Pilot Schemes;
 (5975)
4.Sport—Accounts for 2002–03 of the English Sports Council and the English Sports Council Group.
 (—)
2.Regulatory Reform—The following orders were laid before the House under section 4(2) of the Regulatory Reform Act 2001 and referred to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee:
1.Draft Regulatory Reform (Gaming Machines) Order 2003, together with a statement by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport;
2.Draft Regulatory Reform (Business Tenancies) (England and Wales) Order 2003, together with a statement by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister.
3.Negative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Road Traffic (Permitted Parking Area and Special Parking Area) (County of Hampshire) (Borough of Test Valley) Order 2003, laid under the Road Traffic Act 1991;
 (2336)
2.Pre–Sentence Report Disclosure (Prescriptions of Prosecutors) Order (Northern Ireland) 2003, laid under the Northern Ireland Act 2000.
 (—)

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4.Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1. (i)Principal Pension Scheme for Mr David Calvert-Smith—
(ii)Supplementary Pension Scheme for Mr David Calvert-Smith—
 laid under the Superannuation Act 1972;
2.Accounts for 2002–03 of the General Osteopathic Council, laid under the Osteopaths Act 1993;
3.Report for 2002–03 of the Department of Trade and Industry on Miscellaneous Duty Reliefs, laid under the European Communities Act 1972;
4.Report and Accounts for 2002–03 of the Defence Aviation Repair Agency, laid under the Government Trading Funds Act 1973, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General;
5.Accounts for 2002–03 of the Board of Trustees of the Tate Gallery, laid under the Museums and Galleries Act 1992, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General;
6. (i)Accounts for 2002–03 of the Scottish Arts Council National Lottery Distribution Fund—
(ii)Accounts for 2002–03 of the Sportscotland Lottery Fund—
(iii)Accounts for 2002–03 of the National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts, together with the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General—
 laid under the National Lottery etc. Act 1993.

Public Business

5.Procedure of the House—It was moved by the Chairman of Committees that the 4th Report from the Select Committee be agreed to; after debate, the motion was agreed to.
6.Inter-Governmental Conference—It was moved by the Lord President (Lord Williams of Mostyn) to resolve that the Commons Message of 16th September be now considered; and that any Lord may participate in the proceedings of the Standing Committee on the Inter-Governmental Conference appointed by the Commons, but may not vote or move any motion or be counted in the quorum; after debate, the motion was agreed to; and a message was ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.
7.Local Government Bill—The Commons reasons and amendments were considered; a Lords amendment was not insisted on but an amendment in lieu thereof was agreed to (see division list); a further Lords amendment was not insisted on; Commons amendments to the remaining Lords amendment and Commons’ consequential amendments to the bill were agreed to; then the bill was returned to the Commons with an amendment.
8.Anti-social Behaviour Bill—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; an amendment was agreed to; the House was resumed.
9.Waterways—The Lord Corbett of Castle Vale asked Her Majesty’s Government what they are doing to improve the regulation of the United Kingdom’s rivers, canals and other inland waterways; after debate, the question was answered by the Lord Whitty.

The House was adjourned during pleasure.

The House was resumed.

10.Anti-social Behaviour Bill—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were agreed to; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; the House was resumed after amendment 182B.

The House was adjourned at five minutes before midnight
till tomorrow, eleven o’clock.


DIVISION

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL

It was moved by the Baroness Hanham, as an amendment to the motion that this House do not insist on its Amendment 3, to propose Amendment 3B in lieu thereof; which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the House divided:

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Contents..............139

Not-Contents..............118

CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Hamwee, B. [Teller]
Hanham, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marsh, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Naseby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Rawlings, B.
Redesdale, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trumpington, B.
Ullswater, V.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warnock, B.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bhatia, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Boyce, L.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.

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Fitt, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Joffe, L.
Jordan, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Palmer, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Tanlaw, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Walpole, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
(Lord President)
Woolmer of Leeds, L.