House of Lords Journal 236 (Session 2002-03)


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Thursday 27 March 2003

The House met at half-past two o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Arran, E.
Ashdown of Norton-sub-
Hamdon, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Biffen, L.
Billingham, B.
Birt, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Blood, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Bramall, L.
Brennan, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brightman, L.
Brigstocke, B.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Burns, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butler of Brockwell, L.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.

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Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carey of Clifton, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Carter, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cockfield, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cooke of Thorndon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crawley, B.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Deedes, L.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Eatwell, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elder, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Emerton, B.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gavron, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goschen, V.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greenfield, B.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Grenfell, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Grocott, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Healey, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Joffe, L.
Jones, L.
Jopling, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kilclooney, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Manchester, Bp.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Wolvercote, L.
Moran, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicol, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.

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Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O’Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Orme, L.
Ouseley, L.
Owen, L.
Oxburgh, L.
Oxford, Bp.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Patten, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Pendry, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Portsmouth, Bp.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quirk, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rosslyn, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sewel, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheldon, L.
Sheppard of Liverpool, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Southwark, Bp.
Stallard, L.
Stern, B.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Wilson of Dinton, L.
Windlesham, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Manchester.

Judicial Business

1.Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Appellant) v. Frid (Respondent) (Civil Appeal from Her Majesty’s High Court of Justice) (England)—The appeal of the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry was presented and it was ordered that in accordance with Standing Order VI the statement and appendix thereto be lodged on or before 8th May next
2.Regina v. Webber (Appellant) (On Appeal from the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division))—The appeal of Robert Webber was presented and ordered to be prosecuted subject to the procedures applicable thereto.
3.Sabaf SpA (a company incorporated under the laws of Italy) (Respondents) v. MFI Furniture Centres Limited and others (Appellants)—
4.Sabaf SpA (a company incorporated under the laws of Italy) (Appellants) v. MFI Furniture Centres Limited and others (Respondents)—

The petition of the appellants praying that the appeals be conjoined; that they be allowed to lodge separate statements, one appendix and separate cases and that the Appellants and Respondents be separately represented in respect of the two appeals (the agents for the respondents consenting thereto) was presented; and it was ordered as prayed.

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5.Celtec Limited (Appellants) v. Astley and others (Respondents)—It was ordered that the appeal of Celtec Limited be dismissed in accordance with Standing Order V, the said appellants having failed to give security for costs by 26th March.

Papers

6.Command Paper—The following paper was presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table:

Housing—Government Response to the Report of the House of Commons Select Committee on Housing, Planning, Local Government and the Regions: Affordable Homes.

7.Affirmative Instrument—The following instrument was laid before the House for approval by resolution and ordered to lie on the Table:

Draft Northern Ireland Act 2000 (Modification) Order 2003, laid under the Northern Ireland Act 2000, together with an Explanatory Memorandum.

8.Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1. (i)Report and Accounts for 2001–02 of the Arts Council of Northern Ireland National Lottery Fund—
(ii)Accounts for 2001–02 of the National Lottery Distribution Fund, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General—
 laid under the National Lottery etc. Act 1993;
2.Accounts for 2001–02 of the Legal Aid Fund (Northern Ireland), together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Legal Aid, Advice and Assistance (Northern Ireland) Order 1981;
3.Accounts for 2001–02 of the Pooling of Non–Domestic Rates and Redistribution to Local Authorities in England Account, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Local Government Finance Act 1988;
4.Accounts for 2001–02 of the Probation Board for Northern Ireland, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Probation Board (Northern Ireland) Order 1982.
5.Accounts for 1999–2000 of the National Library of Scotland, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the National Library of Scotland Act 1925;
6.Accounts for the period 1st April to 5th November 2000 of the Independent Commission for Police Complaints for Northern Ireland, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Police (Northern Ireland) Order 1987.

Select Committee Report

9.European Union—The 16th Report from the Select Committee, The Future of Europe: Constitutional Treaty—Draft Article 31 and Draft Articles from Part 2 (Freedom, Security and Justice) was made; it was ordered that the Report be printed. (HL Paper 81)

Public Business

10.Courts Bill [HL]—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; an amendment was agreed to (see division list); further amendments were agreed to; the House was resumed; it was ordered that the Committee stage be resumed after the Community Care (Delayed Discharges etc.) Bill.

The House was adjourned during pleasure.

The House was resumed.

11.Hereditary Peers’ By-election—The Clerk of the Parliaments notified the House that the Viscount Ullswater had been elected in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order 10 (Hereditary peers: by-elections) to fill the vacancy created by the death of the Viscount of Oxfuird among the peers excepted from section 1 of the House of Lords Act 1999.
12.European Parliament (Representation) Bill—The report was received; amendments were moved and (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

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13.Community Care (Delayed Discharges etc.) Bill—The Commons amendments and reasons were considered; a Lords amendment to which the Commons had disagreed was not insisted on and amendments in lieu thereof were agreed to; motions that the House do insist on certain Lords amendments were moved and (by leave of the House) withdrawn and the amendments were not insisted on; a Commons amendment to a Lords amendment was agreed to with an amendment; a motion that the House do disagree with a Commons amendment to a Lords amendment was moved and (by leave of the House) withdrawn and the Commons amendment was then agreed to; the remaining Lords amendments were not insisted on, and the bill was returned to the Commons with amendments.
14.Courts Bill [HL]—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were agreed to; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; the House was resumed and the bill was reported with amendments; it was ordered that the bill be printed as amended. (HL Bill 51)
15.Police (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]—The bill was returned from the Commons agreed to with amendments and with a privilege amendment; it was ordered that the Commons amendments be printed. (HL Bill 52)
16.Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 (Powers of Seizure) Order 2003—It was moved by the Lord Bassam of Brighton that the draft Order laid before the House on 24th February be approved; the motion was agreed to.
17.Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 (Consequential and Incidental Provisions) Order 2003—It was moved by the Lord Falconer of Thoroton that the draft Order laid before the House on 28th February be approved; the motion was agreed to.
18.Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Order 2003—It was moved by the Lord Falconer of Thoroton that the draft Order laid before the House on 25th February be approved; the motion was agreed to.

The House was adjourned at twenty-two minutes past eight o’clock
to Monday next, half-past two o’clock.


DIVISION

COURTS BILL [HL]

It was moved by the Lord Hunt of Wirral, in Clause 87, page 42, line 10, at end to insert:

“( )The Lord Chancellor may not under this section seek to recover judicial salaries.”;

which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the Committee divided:

Contents..............90

Not-Contents..............87

CONTENTS

Ackner, L.
Alderdice, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Ashdown of Norton-sub-
Hamdon, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carey of Clifton, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Cockfield, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Crickhowell, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Dundee, E.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Falkland, V.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Flather, B.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Goodhart, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Laird, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Methuen, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Noakes, B.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Perry of Walton, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Rawlings, B.
Redesdale, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandwich, E.

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Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Strange, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Tordoff, L.
Vivian, L. [Teller]
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bhatia, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blood, B.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dixon, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Healey, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)
Jones, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Orme, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Sheppard of Liverpool, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Whitaker, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
(Lord Privy Seal)
Woolmer of Leeds, L.


APPENDIX

PROCEEDINGS OF THE GRAND COMMITTEE (IN THE MOSES ROOM)

The Committee met at a quarter before four o’clock.

Water Bill [HL]—The bill was considered in the Grand Committee; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; the Committee was adjourned after Clause 6 stood part.

The Committee was adjourned at twenty-seven minutes before eight o’clock.