House of Lords Journal 236 (Session 2002-03)


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Thursday 13 March 2003

The House met at eleven o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Ashcroft, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Bagri, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Best, L.
Bhatia, L.
Biffen, L.
Billingham, B.
Bingham of Cornhill, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brightman, L.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Carter, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chan, L.
Chandos, V.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cooke of Islandreagh, L.
Cooke of Thorndon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crawley, B.
Crickhowell, L.
Croham, L.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Derby, Bp.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Eatwell, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elder, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.

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Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Grocott, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Hanningfield, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hobhouse of Woodborough, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hoffmann, L.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hylton, L.
Jacobs, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Laming, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Levy, L.
Lewis of Newnham, L.
Listowel, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
May of Oxford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Millett, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Moser, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicol, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O’Cathain, B.
Oliver of Aylmerton, L.
O’Neill of Bengarve, B.
Onslow, E.
Oxford, Bp.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Patten, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prashar, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Quirk, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rosslyn, E.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Foscote, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sewel, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.

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Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stewartby, L.
Steyn, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tanlaw, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Waverley, V.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Windlesham, L.
Winston, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Derby.

Papers

1.Command Paper—The following paper was presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table:

European Union—Developments in the European Union under the Danish Presidency July–December 2002.

(5763)

2.Affirmative Instrument—The following instrument was laid before the House for approval by resolution and ordered to lie on the Table:

Draft Electricity and Gas (Energy Efficiency Obligations) (Amendment) Order 2003, laid under the Gas Act 1986, together with an Explanatory Memorandum.

3.Regulatory Reform—The following order was laid before the House under section 6(1) of the Regulatory Reform Act 2001 and referred to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee:

Draft Regulatory Reform (Gaming Machines) Order 2003, together with a statement by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.

4.Negative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1. (i)Westminster Education Action Zone (Extension) Order 2003—(544)
(ii)Great Yarmouth Achievement Education Action Zone (Extension) Order 2003— (555)
(iii)Derby North East Education Action Zone (Extension) Order 2003—(556)
(iv)North Stockton Community Education Action Zone (Extension) Order 2003— (557)
(v)Action for Education and Employment South East Sheffield Education Action Zone (Extension) Order 2003—(558)
(vi)North West Shropshire Education Action Zone (Extension) Order 2003—(560)
(vii)Bristol Education Action Zone (Extension) Order 2003—(561)
 laid under the School Standards and Framework Act 1998;
2.Statutory Paternity Pay (Adoption) and Statutory Adoption Pay (Adoption from Overseas) Regulations 2003, laid under the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992;
 (500)
3.Local Government (Best Value) Performance Plans and Reviews (Amendment) (England and Wales) Order 2003, laid under the Local Government Act 1999;
 (662)
4.Tax Credits (Official Error) Regulations 2003, laid under the Tax Credits Act 2002;
 (692)
5.Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Disclosure of Confidential Information) (Amendment) Regulations 2003, laid under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000;
 (693)
6.ACAS (Flexible Working) Arbitration Scheme (England and Wales) Order 2003, laid under the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992.
 (694)

Public Business

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5.Prevention of Driving under the Influence of Drugs Bill [HL]—A bill to make it an offence to drive a motor vehicle while under the influence of a controlled drug; to provide powers for police officers to undertake roadside drug tests on drivers; to provide that statistics of drug-related road accidents and deaths are collected and collated; and for connected purposes was presented by the Lord Dixon-Smith, read a first time and ordered to be printed. (HL Bill 44)
6.Business of the House—It was moved by the Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean, on behalf of the Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn), that Standing Order 47 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Monday 17th March to allow the Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill to be taken through all its remaining stages; the motion was agreed to.
7.Business of the House—It was moved by the Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean, on behalf of the Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn), that the debate on the motion in the name of the Lord Goodhart set down for Monday 17th March shall be limited to 3 hours; the motion was agreed to.
8.Health (Wales) Bill—It was moved by the Lord Evans of Temple Guiting that the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order:
Clause 1
Schedule 1
Clause 2
Schedule 2
Clauses 3 to 7
Schedules 3 and 4
Clauses 8 to 10;

the motion was agreed to.

9.Regional Assemblies (Preparations) Bill—The House resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; an amendment was moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; a further amendment was moved and the debate on the amendment was adjourned; the House was resumed.

The House was adjourned during pleasure.

The House was resumed.

Judicial Business

10.Owners of cargo lately laden on board the ship or vessel “Starsin” and others (Original Respondents and Cross-appellants) v. Owners and/or demise charterers of the ship or vessel “Starsin” (Original Appellants and Cross-respondents) and two other actions—It was moved by the Lord Bingham of Cornhill, That the 18th Report from the Appellate Committee be agreed to; the motion was agreed to. It was ordered and adjudged that the appeal of the ship-owners be allowed, except as regards Makros Hout BV, and the cross-appeal of Fetim BV and Homburg Houtimport BV dismissed; that the judgments and Orders of the Court of Appeal of 23rd January 2001 and of Mr Justice Colman of 16th July 1999 in favour of Fetim BV and Homburg Houtimport BV be set aside; that the judgment of the Court of Appeal in favour of Makros Hout BV do stand; and that the question of costs be adjourned sine die. [2003] UKHL 12
11.Regina v. Secretary of State for Health (Respondent) ex parte Quintavalle (on behalf of Pro-Life Alliance) (Appellant)—It was moved by the Lord Bingham of Cornhill, That the 19th Report from the Appellate Committee be agreed to; the motion was agreed to. It was ordered and adjudged that the Order of the Court of Appeal of 18th January 2002 be affirmed and the appeal dismissed with costs, the amount thereof to be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties. [2003] UKHL 13
12.Bim Kemi AB (Petitioners) v. Blackburn Chemicals Limited (Respondents)—The petition of Bim Kemi AB praying for leave to appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee.
13.Cream Holdings Limited and others (Respondents) v. Banerjee and others (Petitioners)—The petition of Chumki Banerjee and the Liverpool Daily Post & Echo Limited praying for leave to appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee.
14.Sheldrake (Respondent) v. Director of Public Prosecutions (Petitioner)—The petition of the Director of Public Prosecutions praying for leave to appeal in accordance with the Administration of Justice Act 1960 was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee (lodged 5th March).
15.Waters and others (Appellants) v. Welsh Development Agency (Respondents)—The appeal was set down for hearing and referred to an Appellate Committee.
16.Appeal Committee—The 32nd Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Order was made—

Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Petitioner) v. Frid (Respondent)—That leave to appeal be given; and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 27th March.

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17.Appeal Committee—The 33rd Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Orders were made—

Regina v. Secretary of State for the Home Department (Respondent) ex parte Carroll (FC) (Petitioner)—That leave to appeal be refused; that the costs of the petitioner be taxed in accordance with the Access to Justice Act 1999; and that the respondent be at liberty to apply for his costs in accordance with direction 5.1(c); and, if the application is granted, that the amount thereof be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties.

Regina v. Secretary of State for the Home Department (Respondent) ex parte Al-Hasan (FC) (Petitioner)—That leave to appeal be refused; that the costs of the petitioner be taxed in accordance with the Access to Justice Act 1999; and that the respondent be at liberty to apply for his costs in accordance with direction 5.1(c); and, if the application is granted, that the amount thereof be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties.

Times Newspapers Limited (Petitioners) v. Burstein (Respondent)—That leave to appeal be refused; that the respondent be at liberty to apply for his costs in accordance with direction 5.1(d); and, if the application is granted, that the amount thereof be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties.

Regina v. Secretary of State for the Home Department (Respondent) ex parte Greenfield (FC) (Petitioner)—That leave to appeal be given; and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 27th March.

Regina v. Webber (Petitioner)—That leave to appeal be given; and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 27th March.

The House was adjourned during pleasure.

The House was resumed.

Public Business

18.Regional Assemblies (Preparations) Bill—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; the adjourned debate on an amendment was resumed; after further debate, the amendment was (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; further amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; an amendment was disagreed to (see division list); the House was resumed after amendment 17.
19.North Korea—The Lord Alton of Liverpool asked Her Majesty’s Government what is their policy on the threat posed by North Korea to international security and to the human rights of its citizens; after debate, the question was answered by the Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean.
20.European Parliament (Representation) Bill—The bill was reported from the Grand Committee with amendments; it was ordered that the bill be printed as amended. (HL Bill 45)

The House was adjourned at eight minutes before nine o’clock

till tomorrow, eleven o’clock.


DIVISION

REGIONAL ASSEMBLIES (PREPARATIONS) BILL

It was moved by the Baroness Hanham, in Clause 1, page 1, line 8, at end to insert:

“( )The boundaries of a region subject to a referendum order under subsection (1) will be specified by the Secretary of State.”;

which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the Committee divided:

Contents..............63

Not-Contents..............114

CONTENTS

Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chan, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Cox, B.
Craigavon, V.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ferrers, E.
Freeman, L.
Geddes, L.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Henley, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
Kirkham, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Marlesford, L.

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Marsh, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moynihan, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
O’Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rees, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Walpole, L.
Weatherill, L.
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Andrews, B.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Billingham, B.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fitt, L.
Gale, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hamwee, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Kilclooney, L.
Laird, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Newby, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Rogan, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sandberg, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sewel, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Winston, L.


APPENDIX

PROCEEDINGS OF THE GRAND COMMITTEE (IN THE MOSES ROOM)

The Committee met at half-past four o’clock.

European Parliament (Representation) Bill—The bill was considered in the Grand Committee; amendments were agreed to; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.

The Committee was adjourned at nine minutes past six o’clock.