House of Lords Journal 236 (Session 2002-03)


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Tuesday 18 February 2003

The House met at half-past two o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Arran, E.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.

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Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Birt, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butterworth, L.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carter, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chan, L.
Chandos, V.
Chelmsford, Bp.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cockfield, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crawley, B.
Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Eatwell, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elder, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Emerton, B.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Feldman, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fitt, L.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Gavron, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Gregson, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Grocott, L.
Guildford, Bp.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hylton, L.
Inge, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jones, L.
Jopling, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kimball, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lewis of Newnham, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McCluskey, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicol, B.
Noakes, B.

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Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Ouseley, L.
Oxford, Bp.
Palmer, L.
Parekh, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel, L.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pendry, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prior, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Quirk, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Saatchi, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stallard, L.
Stern, B.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Templeman, L.
Tenby, V.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Turnberg, L.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Vinson, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Windlesham, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Chelmsford.

Judicial Business

1.Lawal (Appellant) v. Northern Spirit Limited (England)—The appeal of Adekunle Adejare Lawal was presented. The respondents having notified their intention not to enter appearance, it was ordered that Standing Order V (Security for costs) be dispensed with. It was further ordered that the statement and appendix be prepared in consultation with the appellant by the amicus curiae nominated by Her Majesty’s Attorney General; and that, in accordance with Standing Order VI, the statement and appendix be lodged on or before 1st April next.
2.Buchler and another (as joint liquidators of Leyland Daf Limited) (Respondents) v. Talbot and another (as joint administrative receivers of Leyland Daf Limited) and others (Appellants) and others—The appeal was set down for hearing and referred to an Appellate Committee.
3.Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Appellants) v. ASDA Stores Limited and another (Respondents) (criminal appeal from Her Majesty’s High Court of Justice)—The appeal was set down for hearing and referred to an Appellate Committee.
4.Eastwood and another (Appellants) v. Magnox Electric plc (Respondents)—The appeal was set down for hearing and referred to an Appellate Committee.
5.Taylor (Her Majesty’s Inspector of Taxes) (Respondent) v. MEPC Holdings Limited (Appellants)—The appeal was set down for hearing and referred to an Appellate Committee.

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6.RCO Support Services Limited (Appellants) v. Unison and others (Respondents)—The petition of the appellants praying that the time for lodging the statement and appendix and setting down the cause for hearing might be extended to 18th March next (the agents for the respondents consenting thereto) was presented; and it was ordered as prayed.
7.In re B (minors) (2002) (FC)—The petition of the first and fourth respondents praying for leave to lodge a separate case (the agents for the appellant consenting thereto) was presented; and it was ordered as prayed.

Papers

8.Negative Instrument—The following instrument was laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:

Antarctic (Amendment) Regulations 2003, laid under the Antarctic Act 1994.

(323)

Public Business

9.Health (Wales) Bill—It was moved by the Lord Evans of Temple Guiting that it be an instruction to the Grand Committee to which the Health (Wales) Bill has been committed that they consider the bill in the following Order:
Clause 1
Schedule 1
Clause 2
Schedule 2
Clauses 3 to 7
Schedules 3 and 4
Clauses 8 to 10;

the motion was agreed to.

10.Crime (International Co-operation) Bill [HL]—It was moved by the Lord Grocott, on behalf of the Lord Filkin, that the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order:
Clauses 1 to 15
Schedule 1
Clauses 16 to 31
Schedule 2
Clauses 32 to 54
Schedule 3
Clauses 55 to 89
Schedule 4
Clause 90
Schedules 5 and 6
Clauses 91 to 95;

the motion was agreed to.

11.Community Care (Delayed Discharges etc.) Bill—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; an amendment was agreed to (see division list 1); amendments were agreed to; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; the House was resumed and the bill was reported with amendments; it was ordered that the bill be printed as amended. (HL Bill 35)
12.Courts Bill [HL]—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; an amendment was disagreed to (see division list 2); an amendment was agreed to (see division list 3); the House was resumed after amendment 132.

The House was adjourned at sixteen minutes past ten o’clock
till tomorrow, half-past two o’clock.


DIVISIONS

Division No. 1

COMMUNITY CARE (DELAYED DISCHARGES ETC.) BILL

It was moved by the Baroness Noakes, in Clause 3, page 3, line 45, at end to insert:

“( )The Secretary of State shall specify to the bodies charged with inspection of health and social services that they should monitor, at regular intervals, the impact of this Act on patients and their carers.”;

which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the Committee divided:

Contents..............110

Not-Contents..............109

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CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Blatch, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chelmsford, Bp.
Clement-Jones, L. [Teller]
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Cumberlege, B.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Falkland, V.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Greengross, B.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Higgins, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Luke, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Noakes, B.
Palmer, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennard, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Strange, B.
Swinfen, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tordoff, L.
Vinson, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warnock, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ahmed, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gregson, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Nicol, B.
Parekh, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.

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Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Richard, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Slim, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stallard, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Varley, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

COURTS BILL [HL]

Division No. 2

It was moved by the Lord Hunt of Wirral, before Clause 81, to insert the new Clause (Court of Appeal: Attorney General’s power to refer unduly lenient sentences); which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the Committee divided:

Contents..............38

Not-Contents..............68

CONTENTS

Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller]
Attlee, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Blatch, B.
Bridgeman, V.
Burnham, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Dean of Harptree, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Dundee, E.
Geddes, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Howe, E.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
Lyell, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Montrose, D.
Noakes, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Walpole, L.
Wilcox, B.
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Andrews, B.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Borrie, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chan, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Eatwell, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Gale, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Greaves, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hylton, L.
Judd, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Palmer, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thornton, B.
Tordoff, L.
Varley, L.
Whitaker, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Winston, L.

Division No. 3

It was moved by the Lord Hunt of Wirral, in Clause 87, page 41, line 26, at end to insert:

“( ) In prescribing fees payable under subsection (1), the Lord Chancellor shall have regard to the need to facilitate access to justice.”;

which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the Committee divided:

Contents..............37

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Not-Contents..............36

CONTENTS

Anelay of St Johns, B.
Attlee, E.
Blatch, B.
Bridgeman, V.
Burnham, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Dean of Harptree, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Geddes, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Goodhart, L.
Greaves, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
Kimball, L.
Lyell, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Montrose, D.
Noakes, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ahmed, L.
Andrews, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Borrie, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Dixon, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Gale, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Judd, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
Pitkeathley, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Thornton, B.
Whitaker, B.
Winston, L.