House of Lords Journal 236 (Session 2002-03)


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Tuesday 10 December 2002

The House met at half-past two o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.

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Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashcroft, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Biffen, L.
Billingham, B.
Birt, L.
Blackburn, Bp.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Blood, B.
Boardman, L.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Carter, L.
Chan, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cockfield, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cooke of Thorndon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crawley, B.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elder, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Emerton, B.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Ferrers, E.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goschen, V.
Goudie, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Gregson, L.
Grocott, L.
Guildford, Bp.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hattersley, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hylton, L.
Inge, L.
Islwyn, L.
Jacobs, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Jones, L.
Jopling, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lewis of Newnham, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lipsey, L.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.

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Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McCarthy, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McFarlane of Llandaff, B.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicol, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O’Cathain, B.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Orme, L.
Ouseley, L.
Palmer, L.
Parekh, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Patten, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pendry, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prior, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Quirk, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Richard, L.
Rix, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rosslyn, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheldon, L.
Sheppard of Didgemere, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Southwark, Bp.
Stallard, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Templeman, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trumpington, B.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Vincent of Coleshill, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Winchester, Bp.
Winston, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Guildford.

Judicial Business

1.Kirin-Amgen Inc and others (Respondents) v. Hoechst Marion Roussel Limited and others (Petitioners)—The petition of Hoechst Marion Roussel Limited, Hoechst Marion Roussel Inc

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  and Transkaryotic Therapies Inc praying for leave to appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee (lodged 25th November).

Papers

2.Regulatory Reform—The following order was laid before the House under section 6(1) of the Regulatory Reform Act 2001 and referred to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee:

Draft Regulatory Reform (Schemes under Section 129 of the Housing Act 1988) (England) Order 2003, together with a Statement by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister.

3.Negative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.State Pension Credit (Consequential, Transitional and Miscellaneous Provisions) Regulations 2002, laid under the State Pension Credit Act 2002;
 (3019)
2.Non-Domestic Rating Contributions (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2002, laid under the Local Government Finance Act 1988;
 (3021)
3.Tax Credits (Administrative Arrangements) Regulations 2002, laid under the Tax Credits Act 2002;
 (3036)
4.Port of Larne (Pilotage Functions) Order 2002, laid under the Pilotage Act 1987;
 (3037)
5.Commission for Patient and Public Involvement in Health (Membership and Procedure) Regulations 2002, laid under the National Health Service Reform and Health Care Professions Act 2002;
 (3038)
6. (i)Counter Fraud and Security Management Service (Establishment and Constitution) Order 2002—(3039)
(ii)Counter Fraud and Security Management Service Regulations 2002—(3040)
 laid under the National Health Service Act 1977;
7.Tobacco Products (Manufacture, Presentation and Sale) (Safety) Regulations 2002, laid under the Consumer Protection Act 1987.
 (3041)
4.Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Report on the working in 2001 of the Criminal Justice (Terrorism and Conspiracy) Act 1998, laid under that Act;
2.Review of Military Use of Baton Rounds in Northern Ireland, 1st January 2001 to 31st October 2002, laid under the Terrorism Act 2000;
3.Third report for 2002 by the Oversight Commissioner on progress in implementing the recommendations of the Independent Commission on Policing for Northern Ireland, laid under the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000.

Select Committee Reports

5. Statutory Instruments—The 4th Report from the Joint Committee was made on certain statutory instruments, including the following affirmative instrument:
 Draft Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 (Amendment of section 46(1)) Order 2002;

it was ordered that the Report be printed. (HL Paper 18)

6.House Committee—The First Report from the Select Committee was made (see appendix) and ordered to be printed. (HL Paper 19)

Private Business

7.London Development Agency Bill—The bill was read a second time and committed to an Unopposed Bill Committee.

Public Business

8.Greater London Authority Act 1999 (Repeal) Bill [HL]—A bill to repeal the Greater London Authority Act 1999 was presented by the Lord Ampthill, read a first time and ordered to be printed. (HL Bill 16)
9.Consolidated Fund Bill—A bill to authorise the use of resources for the service of the years ending on 31st March 2003 and 2004 and to apply certain sums out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the years ending on 31st March 2003 and 2004 was brought from the Commons endorsed with the certificate of the Speaker that the bill is a money bill and read a first time.

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10.Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill—A bill to modify limits on non-operating appropriations in aid set for the year that ended with 31st March 2002 was brought from the Commons endorsed with the certificate of the Speaker that the bill is a money bill and read a first time.
11.Business of the House—It was moved by the Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn) that the debates on the motions in the names of the Lord Peyton of Yeovil and the Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes set down for tomorrow shall each be limited to 2½ hours; the motion was agreed to.
12.Budget Report—It was moved by the Lord McIntosh of Haringey that this House takes note with approval of Her Majesty’s Government’s assessment as set out in the Pre-Budget Report 2002 for the purposes of section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993; after debate, the motion was agreed to.
13.National Minimum Wage (Enforcement Notices) Bill [HL]—It was moved by the Lord Sainsbury of Turville that the bill be now read a second time; after debate, the motion was agreed to and the bill was committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
14.High Hedges Bill [HL]—It was moved by the Baroness Gardner of Parkes that the bill be now read a second time; after debate, the motion was agreed to and the bill was committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
15.Synodical Government (Amendment) Measure—It was moved by the Lord Bishop of Guildford that this House do direct that, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act 1919, the Measure be presented to Her Majesty for the Royal Assent; the motion was agreed to.
16.Church of England (Pensions) Measure—It was moved by the Lord Bishop of Guildford that this House do direct that, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act 1919, the Measure be presented to Her Majesty for the Royal Assent; the motion was agreed to.
17.Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Codes of Practice) (Statutory Powers of Stop and Search) Order 2002—It was moved by the Lord Falconer of Thoroton that the draft Order laid before the House on 13th November be approved; after debate, the motion was agreed to.
18.Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (Cash Searches: Code of Practice) Order 2002—It was moved by the Lord Goldsmith that the draft Order laid before the House on 25th November be approved; after debate, the motion was agreed to.
19.Jobseeker’s Allowance (Amendment) Regulations 2002—It was moved by the Baroness Hollis of Heigham that the draft Regulations laid before the House on 20th November be approved; after debate, the motion was agreed to.
20.Social Security Commissioners (Procedure) (Tax Credits Appeals) Regulations 2002—It was moved by the Baroness Hollis of Heigham that the draft Regulations laid before the House on 28th November be approved; after debate, the motion was agreed to.
21.Tax Credits (Appeals) (No. 2) Regulations 2002—It was moved by the Baroness Hollis of Heigham that the draft Regulations laid before the House on 28th November be approved; the motion was agreed to.
22.Gibraltar—The Lord Thomas of Swynnerton asked Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to resolve the problem of Gibraltar; after debate, the question was answered by the Baroness Amos.

The House was adjourned at twenty-six minutes before ten o’clock
till tomorrow, half-past two o’clock.


APPENDIX

First Report


10 December 2002


By the Select Committee appointed to supervise the general administration of the House and guide the work of the Management Board; to agree the annual Estimates, Supplementary Estimates and the three-year spending forecasts; to approve the House of Lords Annual Report; and to approve changes in employment policy.

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Ordered to Report

DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION RELATING TO MEMBERS’ CLAIMS FOR EXPENSES

1. Earlier this year the Finance and Staff Sub-Committee twice considered the question whether information relating to claims for expenses submitted by Members would need to be disclosed when the rights of access to information held by public authorities under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 come into force on 1 January 2005; and whether the House should publish such information in advance of that date. The Committee has given further consideration to this question and now makes this report to the House.

Background

2. The Freedom of Information Act gives a general right of access to all types of recorded information held by public authorities and sets out exemptions from that right. The Act applies to both Houses of Parliament and specifically identifies them as public authorities.

3. As required by section 19 of the Act, the House has agreed a Publication Scheme setting out the classes of information which it publishes or intends to publish. The Scheme, which must be periodically reviewed under the Act, was itself published in November.

4. The Finance and Staff Sub-Committee took the view that disclosure of information relating to expenses was likely to be required from January 2005 and favoured publication of such information before that date. However, it did not recommend that Members’ expenses should be included in the initial Publication Scheme pending legal advice on the matter which had been sought by both Houses of Parliament.

5. Allowances claimed by Members of the Scottish Parliament are published in the annual report of the Parliament’s Corporate Body in aggregate form, broken down by Member and by each allowance, in accordance with section 83 of the Scotland Act 1998. A Standing Order of the Northern Ireland Assembly provides for similar publication by that Assembly.

Legal Advice

6. Legal advice suggested that the House should publish, in aggregate form, the expenses claimed by each Member, broken down by the main categories of expenses, and that it could not easily justify doing less. It would still be open to individual Members to give notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 if they consider that the disclosure of the expenses claimed by them would, or would be likely to, cause them substantial damage or distress that would be unwarranted. Any such notice would be dealt with in accordance with the provisions of that section.

Recommendations

7. The Committee makes the following recommendations:

    (a) The House of Lords’ Publication Scheme should be amended to include information relating to Members expenses. This information should be published annually (related to financial years), broken down by the main categories of expenses available, namely: travelling expenses, day subsistence, night subsistence, secretarial etc. costs and the costs of the post-paid envelope scheme for correspondence on parliamentary business. Since travel costs vary widely, an indication should be given of the location of each Member’s main residence.

    (b) Details of expenditure on select committee and parliamentary delegation travel should be published separately.

    (c) Details held by the House of claims for Financial Assistance to the Opposition parties and the Convenor of the Crossbench Peers (“Cranborne money”) should also be published.

    (d) This information should be made available before the rights of access under the Freedom of Information Act come into force on 1 January 2005. It should be published in Autumn 2004, once all claims by Lords for the financial year 2003–04 have been submitted and paid. The House should also publish information in respect of the financial years 2001–02, 2002-03 and 2003–04 because the Act is fully retrospective and records of expenses are retained in the Accountant’s Office for a period of three years, as agreed by the National Audit Office.

The Committee understands that these recommendations are broadly in line with policy developed in the House of Commons.

8. Before Autumn 2004 the Committee will give further consideration to this matter. It will ensure that all Members are notified in person of the decision of the House and that they are given the opportunity to see in advance the data relating to their own claims. The Committee will also consider in detail the categories of expenses to be disclosed and the form in which the information should be published. The Committee will report further to the House as appropriate.

9. The Committee recognises the sensitivity of these recommendations. We strongly believe that, since public funds are involved, accountability and transparency are necessary in this area. Our recommendations strike the correct balance between the rights of individual Members of the House and the public interest, and they are necessary to ensure compliance with the Freedom of Information Act.