House of Lords Journal 236 (Session 2002-03)


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Thursday 28 November 2002

The House met at eleven o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Arran, E.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bhatia, L.
Biffen, L.
Billingham, B.
Black of Crossharbour, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Bramall, L.
Brennan, L.

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Brett, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butler of Brockwell, L.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carter, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cockfield, L.
Coe, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crawley, B.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Durham, Bp.
Eatwell, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elder, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Filkin, L.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gale, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gavron, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Grocott, L.
Hanham, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hylton, L.
Inge, L.
Islwyn, L.
Jacobs, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Joffe, L.
Jopling, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.

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Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicol, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O’Cathain, B.
O’Neill of Bengarve, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Orme, L.
Palmer, L.
Parkinson, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Patten, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Pendry, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Prashar, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quirk, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Richard, L.
Rix, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodger of Earlsferry, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Roper, L.
Rosslyn, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sewel, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Southwark, Bp.
Stallard, L.
Stern, B.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wakefield, Bp.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Weatherill, L.
Weidenfeld, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Winchester, Bp.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Southwark.

Judicial Business

1. Regina v. Lyons and others (Appellants) (On Appeal from the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division))—Further to the Judgment of the House of 14th November instant (First Report from the Appellate Committee, [2002] UKHL 44), it was ordered that the appellants do pay to the respondent his costs before this House, the amount thereof to be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties.
2.In re Burke—The petition of Robert Anthony Burke praying for leave to petition the House in connection with a matter relating to the cause formerly depending in this House was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee.
3.Ravenseft Properties Limited (Respondents) v. Hall (FC) (Petitioner)—The petition of Brigid Agatha Hall praying for leave to appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee. The petitioner’s certificate of public funding was lodged. (lodged 21st November)
4.Appeal Committee—The 9th Report from the Appeal Committee was made and ordered to be printed (HL Paper 11). The Report was agreed to and the following Order was made:

In re Burke—That the petition be dismissed.

Papers

5.Command Papers—The following papers were presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table:

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1.Disability—Report by the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council on Occupational Deafness;
 (5672)
2.Local Government—Government Response to the 14th Report of the House of Commons Transport, Local Government and the Regions Select Committee on the working of the Local Government Act 2000;
 (5687)
3.Departmental Performance—Autumn Performance Reports 2002 of the—
(i)Department for Work and Pensions;(5660)
(ii)National Savings and Investments;(5691)
(iii)Food Standards Agency.(5694)
6.Affirmative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House for approval by resolution and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Draft Social Security Commissioners (Procedure) (Tax Credits Appeals) Regulations 2002, laid under the Social Security Act 1998, together with an Explanatory Memorandum;
2.Draft Tax Credits (Appeals) (No. 2) Regulations 2002, laid under the Social Security Act 1998, together with an Explanatory Memorandum.
7.Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Report and Accounts for 2001–02 of the Heritage Lottery Fund and the National Heritage Memorial Fund, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the National Lottery etc. Act 1993;
2.Report for 2001–02 on bringing fully into force those provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 which are not already in force, laid under the Freedom of Information Act 2000;
3.Report for 2001–02 of the Postal Services Commission, laid under the Postal Services Act 2000.

Select Committee Reports

8.Science and Technology—The following Reports from the Select Committee were made and ordered to be printed:

Managing Radioactive Waste: the Government’s response; (First Report–HL Paper 12)

Chips for Everything, together with the Minutes of Evidence. (2nd Report–HL Paper 13)

Private Business

9.Standing Orders (Private Business)—It was moved by the Chairman of Committees that the Standing Orders relating to Private Business be amended as follows:

Amendment
No.

Standing Order 4A

1. Line 3, after “London” insert “and, if it affects Wales, at an office in Cardiff”

2. Line 14, leave out “or community” and insert “, or (in Wales) in the county or county borough in which the community,”

3. Line 35, after “district” insert “or (in Wales) in the county or county borough,”

Standing Order 24

4. Line 1, after “notice” insert “under the preceding orders”

Standing Order 26

5. Line 4, at end insert “(see also Standing Order 201 (Time for delivering notices and making deposits))”

Standing Order 27

6. Line 75, leave out “Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions” and insert “Office of the Deputy Prime Minister”

Standing Order 27A

7. Line 34, leave out “Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions” and insert “Office of the Deputy Prime Minister”

Standing Order 29

8. Line 8, leave out “, Local Government and the Regions”

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Standing Order 34

9. Line 12, leave out “, Local Government and the Regions”

Standing Order 37

10. Line 10, leave out “Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions” and insert “Office of the Deputy Prime Minister”

11. Line 18, leave out “Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions” and insert “Office of the Deputy Prime Minister”

Standing Order 39

12. Line 5, leave out “, the Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions”

13. Line 6, after “Industry” insert “, the Department for Transport and the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister”

14. Line 18, leave out “General Register Office” and insert “Office for National Statistics”

Standing Order 45

15. Line 17, leave out “, Local Government and the Regions”

Standing Order 47

16. Line 12, leave out “Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions” and insert “Office of the Deputy Prime Minister”

Standing Order 98

17. Line 1, leave out “not be read a first time earlier than” and insert “be read a first time on—

    a) 22nd January or, if the House is not sitting on that day, the first sitting day after that, or

    b) the day given by paragraph (1A),

    whichever is the later.

    (1A) The day given by this paragraph is”

18. Leave out line 16.

Standing Order 127

19. Line 8, leave out “an officer of” and insert “a person nominated by”

Standing Order 139

20. Line 11, leave out “, Local Government and the Regions”

21. Line 27, leave out “, Local Government and the Regions”;

    after debate, the motion was agreed to; it was ordered that the amendments be printed. (HL Paper 10)

Public Business

10.House of Lords Reform—It was moved by the Chairman of Committees that the Commons message of yesterday be now considered, and that a Committee of twelve Lords be appointed to join with the Committee appointed by the Commons to consider and report on issues relating to House of Lords Reform;

That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following Lords be named of the Committee:

L. Archer of Sandwell
V. Bledisloe
L. Brooke of Alverthorpe
L. Carter
L. Forsyth of Drumlean
B. Gibson of Market Rasen
L. Goodhart
L. Howe of Aberavon
L. Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay
B. O’Cathain
E. Selborne
L. Weatherill;

That the Committee have power to agree with the Committee appointed by the Commons in the appointment of a Chairman;

That the Committee have leave to report from time to time;

That the Reports of the Committee from time to time shall be printed, notwithstanding any adjournment of the House;

That the Committee have power to appoint specialist advisers;

That the Committee have power to adjourn from place to place within the United Kingdom;

That the proceedings of the Joint Committee on House of Lords Reform in the last session of Parliament be referred to the Committee;

And that the Committee do meet with the Committee appointed by the Commons on Tuesday 3rd December next at ten o’clock in Committee Room 4;

the motion was agreed to and a message was ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

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11.Iraq—It was moved by the Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean that this House takes note of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441 on Iraq; after debate, further debate was adjourned.

The House was adjourned during pleasure.
The House was resumed.

12.Iraq—The debate on the motion of the Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean that this House takes note of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441 on Iraq was resumed; after further debate, the motion was agreed to.
13.House of Lords Reform—A message was brought from the Commons that they have ordered that the Committee appointed by them do meet with the Committee appointed by this House on Tuesday 3rd December next at 10 am as proposed by this House.
14.Courts Bill [HL]—A bill to make provision about the courts and their procedure and practice; about judges and magistrates; about fines and the enforcement processes of the courts; about periodical payments of damages; and for connected purposes was presented by the Lord Grocott on behalf of the Lord Chancellor, read a first time and ordered to be printed. (HL Bill 12)
15.Courts Bill [HL]—It was ordered that the Explanatory Notes relating to the bill be printed. (HL Bill 12–EN)

The House was adjourned at twenty-two minutes before seven o’clock
to Monday next, half-past two o’clock.