Previous Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, as I understand it, the purpose of the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness to insert the additional provisions at the end of Clause 96 is to clarify the meaning of that clause. I regret to have to say that, although they are obviously there with the best intentions, they do not get away from the fundamental defects in the clause that have been pointed out and developed by the noble Lords, Lord Kingsland and Lord Thomas. I am afraid that I shall be voting with them on the matter.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I say straightaway to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, that I am very sorry indeed to have given him sleepless nights. I had hoped that I had delivered the antidote capable of providing a little balm to his troubled spirit in relation to the matter.

I have responded to the substance of the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. He posed a number of questions. If I may respectfully say so, that is why, when I opened the debate, I went through with care the way in which we think that the clause will operate. There are three real points. The first is that the Government remain of the view that all relevant evidence should be admissible and capable of going before the jury. However, there should be safeguards which would prevent that relevant evidence going forward if the defendant can establish that it was not relevant; or that it was more prejudicial than probative; or that there was some other cause using the provisions which we have now added. Those safeguards would cause the evidence to be excluded on the basis that the judge would exercise his discretion that it was unjust so to do.

19 Nov 2003 : Column 1993

We believe that the new safeguards that we have in place cure all the ills about which noble Lords opposite have complained. It is the most powerful antidote that we can provide and we believe that the solution suffices. However, I listened with great care to what both noble Lords said and I do not know whether after our discussions there may be further or other explanations I may be able to make from the Dispatch Box which may put these issues beyond doubt. I believe that they are beyond doubt already, but in your Lordships' House I have come to recognise that my assessment and the clarity and detail which your Lordships sometimes require do not always coincide. I believe that the Government have done enough on these issues and I commend the amendment to the House.

Lord Kingsland: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her courteous response. The difficulty I have with what she has just said, with the best of intentions, is that the difference between her observations about what the text says and the text itself is sufficiently large for me to think it appropriate to test the opinion of the House.

6.12 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 114B) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 190; Not-Contents, 112.

Division No. 4


Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Biffen, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dholakia, L. [Teller]
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geraint, L.
Gilbert, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Home, E.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lindsay, E.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Naseby, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parkinson, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Prashar, B.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.


Acton, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

19 Nov 2003 : Column 1995

Motion, as amended, agreed to.

6.22 p.m.


115Leave out Clause 90 The Commons disagree to this amendment but propose the following amendment to the words so restored to the Bill—

Next Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page