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Lord Archer of Sandwell: My Lords, what is there left for me to say? I once participated in a philosophy seminar when the proposition under discussion was that you cannot expect to be disappointed because it entails that you did not expect to achieve your objective; and if you do not expect to achieve your objective, you cannot be disappointed when you do not achieve it.

I am grateful to my noble friend for that full reply and for the serious core of hope which it includes. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 310 [Provision for Northern Ireland]:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 247A:


On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 312 [Commencement]:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 247B:


    Page 176, line 5, after "313" insert ", (Channel Islands and Isle of Man)"

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 247B, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 247C, 255, 251, 252, 253A and 254. Amendments Nos. 247B, 247C and 255 make provision for extending the sentencing provisions by Order in Council to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. The islands have been consulted and have agreed to the amendment.

Amendments Nos. 251, 252, 253A and 254 are drafting improvements to the "Extent" clause and deal in particular with the extent of amendments to the various enactments dealing with the different armed forces. I beg to move.

Lord Monson: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for pre-empting what I wanted to say. I merely wanted an assurance that these amendments would not in any way alter the relationship between

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the United Kingdom government and the self-governing territories of the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man. I am pleased to hear that that is not the case.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 313 [Extent]:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendments Nos. 247C to 252:


    Page 176, line 23, after "section" insert "and to section (Channel Islands and Isle of Man)"


    Page 176, leave out line 27 and insert—


"sections 67 and (Offences in connection with publication restrictions);" Page 176, line 29, at end insert—


"section 270;" Page 176, line 42, leave out "269 and 270" and insert "and 269"


    Page 177, line 8, leave out "and 80" and insert "to (Application of Criminal Appeal Acts to proceedings under Part 9)"


    Page 177, line 11, at end insert—


"section (Sentencing for firearms offences in Northern Ireland) and Schedule (Sentencing for firearms offences in Northern Ireland)" Page 177, line 15, at end insert—


"(6A) The amendment or repeal of any enactment by any provision of—
(a) Part 1,
(b) section 263,
(c) Part 2 of Schedule 3
(d) Schedule 25,
(e) Schedule 26,
(f) Part 1 of Schedule 28,
(g) Parts 1 to 4 and 6 of Schedule 32, and
(h) Parts 1 to 3, 5 to 7, 9 and 11 of Schedule 33,
extends to the part or parts of the United Kingdom to which the enactment extends." Page 177, line 16, leave out subsection (7).

On Question, amendments agreed to.

[Amendment No. 253 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendments Nos. 253A and 254:


    Page 177, line 25, at end insert—


"(10A) Any provision of this Act which—
(a) relates to any enactment contained in—
(i) the Army Act 1955 (3 & 4 Eliz. 2 c. 18),
(ii) the Air Force Act 1955 (3 & 4 Eliz. 2 c. 19),
(iii) the Naval Discipline Act 1957 (c. 53),
(iv) the Courts-Martial (Appeals) Act 1968 (c. 20),
(v) the Armed Forces Act 1976 (c. 52),
(vi) section 113 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (c. 60),
(vii) the Reserve Forces Act 1996 (c. 14), or
(viii) the Armed Forces Act 2001 (c. 19), and

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(b) is not itself contained in Schedule 23 or Part 8 of Schedule 33,
has the same extent as the enactment to which it relates." Page 177, line 26, leave out subsection (11).

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 255:


    After Clause 313, insert the following new clause—


"CHANNEL ISLANDS AND ISLE OF MAN
(1) Subject to subsections (2) and (3), Her Majesty may by Order in Council extend any provision of this Act, with such modifications as appear to Her Majesty in Council to be appropriate, to any of the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man.
(2) Subsection (1) does not authorise the extension to any place of a provision of this Act so far as the provision amends an enactment that does not itself extend there and is not itself capable of being extended there in the exercise of a power conferred on Her Majesty in Council.
(3) Subsection (1) does not apply in relation to any provision that extends to the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man by virtue of any of subsections (8) to (10A) of section 313.
(4) Subsection (4) of section 306 applies to the power to make an Order in Council under subsection (1) as it applies to any power of the Secretary of State to make an order under this Act, but as if references in that subsection to the Minister making the instrument were references to Her Majesty in Council."

On Question, amendment agreed to.

In the Title:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 256:


    Line 4, after "1997;" insert "to make provision about civil proceedings brought by offenders;"

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill

9.2 p.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Warner): My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now further considered on Report.

Moved, That the Bill be further considered on Report.—(Lord Warner.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Clause 158 [Payment of NHS charges to hospitals or ambulance trusts]:

Lord Skelmersdale moved Amendment No. 386:


    Page 78, line 14, leave out paragraph (b).

The noble Lord said: My Lords, we now return to what the Minister described in Committee as,


    "not just a stealth tax".—[Official Report, 20/10/03; col. 1417.]

I have been wanting to tease him about that for some time, but now is not the moment. Clause 158(3)(b) provides for regulations to establish who is to receive the money when the responsible body of the health authority or ambulance trust concerned has ceased to exist.

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It seems self-evident that the money, which is to come in very quickly—normally within 14 days of the certificate being issued—will be in time to be credited in the final accounts and usually to mitigate the debts of the NHS facility in question. I cannot imagine many cases where a credit balance appears on the closing accounts of a hospital, for example, or, indeed, an ambulance trust. I am sure that the regulations on that will make interesting reading to my noble friend Lady Noakes.

However, putting that red herring to one side, that issue does not concern me at present. What do worry me are the last five words of the subsection. They read,


    "including provision modifying this Part".

That surely means that none of the other order-making powers in this part are really necessary. If the final words of this subsection do not cover the whole of this part, as seems to be the case, what on earth are they doing there? If they mean what they say, are the regulations to amend any part of Part 3 covered by Clause 191(5)(c)? Noble Lords will remember that Clause 191(5)(c) concerns,


    " an order or regulations under this Act . . . which amends or repeals any part of the text of an Act",

in terms of making incidental, supplementary, consequential, transitory, transitional or saving provisions. After all, the subject can hardly be covered by the noble Lord's new favourite word "minutiae". I beg to move.

Lord Warner: My Lords, it is always a pleasure to be able to extend the noble Lord's vocabulary. It might help if I explain the purpose of the subsection that the amendment would remove before turning to these points.

Sometimes there can be quite a long period between an injury being suffered and treated and the compensation and associated NHS costs being paid by the compensator. During that time the NHS trust at which the treatment was received may have ceased to exist, generally due to merging with another to form a new separate NHS trust. Consequently the compensation recovery unit receives money from the compensator which it can no longer forward to the trust providing the treatment because that trust no longer exists.

Clause 158(3)(b) allows regulations to be made to deal with that situation. Under the existing road traffic scheme these regulations specify that the recovered funds can be given to the NHS body to which the property rights and liabilities of the old NHS trust have been transferred. It is our intention that the regulations governing the extended scheme will make exactly the same provisions using the powers in Clause 158(3)(b). In that way we shall be able to ensure that every penny of recovered funds goes back to the NHS. Without that provision the compensation recovery unit would find itself unable to comply with Clause 158(1), which places an obligation to give recovered funds to the responsible body of the hospital that provided the treatment, because that responsible body would no longer exist.

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My understanding of the last five words about which the noble Lord is so concerned is that this was provided there and parliamentary counsel thought it was appropriate, but I am happy to give a more extended reply in writing if it would help the noble Lord.


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