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Lord Thomas of Gresford moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 238AB, Amendment No. 238AC:


The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have heard the explanation given by the noble Baroness for allowing a person to have as a defence an unreasonable belief that the claimant was about to commit an offence. Mantraps were abolished in 1827. The proposed new clause seems to open up the possibility of a person having a defence because he unreasonably believed that his house was about to be attacked, mantraps were set in the garden, and that he had imprisoned someone who, under new subsection (1)(a) was trespassing, and, under new subsection (1)(b), had committed some other imprisonable offence at the same time.

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An unreasonable belief goes too far. It should be objectively justified if the defence is to succeed. After all, the proceedings would not begin unless the person bringing the proceedings had been injured in some way. I beg to move.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I welcome the government amendment, which responds properly and generously to the points made by my right honourable friends in another place, both in Committee and on Report. There is a long history to this discussion. It has been our determination throughout that those who act honestly should be protected. Under this amendment, they would be protected only if they were acting proportionately. We believe that the government amendment achieves that. For that reason I do not support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. We are persuaded that where there is a vulnerable person, their honest belief should be sufficient to give them protection.

I have one question for the Minister, which is not fatal to our support for their amendment. My noble friend Lord Hunt points out that when he moved his original amendment (at col. 1011 of the Official Report on 15th October 2003), it covered a victim who was a servant or agent of any person falling within the definition of his subsection (3). His question really was whether, when they drafted their amendment, the Government considered the position of someone who was a servant or an agent. If they did, are such people now covered in the amendment and, if not, why did the Government decide that they should not be brought within its scope? As I said, such an exclusion is not fatal to my support.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, we believe, as I think I said, that if someone goes to intervene or help, they would be covered by these provisions. I hope that that is clear. I know that I was speaking very rapidly to try and encompass the information as quickly as possible. When the noble Baroness looks at Hansard, I hope she will agree that those additional persons about whom she is concerned are covered.

I should like to say a word in response to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. We believe that honest belief incorporates the element of proportionality so the court would be able to ensure that a proper balance in that regard is made. That is why we prefer our construct in terms of the way in which this should be addressed.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I am happy to reply regarding my amendment. The scenario I have in mind is of two people who go into somebody's property to have a fight. That is trespass—an imprisonable offence. The owner of the house believes honestly, but unreasonably, that it is an attack upon his property, takes a gun and shoots them. There is to be no redress for those people under the Minister's

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amendment. I do not think that is right, but I do not intend to press this. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment to Amendment No. 238AB, by leave, withdrawn.

On Question, Amendment No. 238AB agreed to.

Clause 306 [Orders and rules]:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 238B:


    Page 173, line 38, at end insert—


"section (Early removal of prisoners liable to removal from United Kingdom),"

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 32 [Further minor and consequential amendments]:

Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendments Nos. 239 to 241:


    Page 377, line 2, leave out paragraph 11.


    Page 378, line 20, at end insert—

"Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003

16A After section 4 of the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 there is inserted—
"4A GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR SERVICE OF WRITTEN CHARGE OR REQUISITION
(1) This section applies to the following documents issued for the purposes of criminal proceedings in England and Wales by a prosecutor—
(a) a written charge (within the meaning of section 27 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003),
(b) a requisition (within the meaning of that section).
(2) The written charge or requisition may be issued in spite of the fact that the person on whom it is to be served is outside the United Kingdom.
(3) Where the written charge or requisition is to be served outside the United Kingdom and the prosecutor believes that the person on whom it is to be served does not understand English, the written charge or requisition must be accompanied by a translation of it in an appropriate language.
(4) A written charge or requisition served outside the United Kingdom must be accompanied by a notice giving any information required to be given by rules of court.
(5) If a requisition is served outside the United Kingdom, no obligation under the law of England and Wales to comply with the requisition is imposed by virtue of the service.
(6) Accordingly, failure to comply with the requisition is not a ground for issuing a warrant to secure the attendance of the person in question.
(7) But the requisition may subsequently be served on the person in question in the United Kingdom (with the usual consequences for non-compliance).
4B SERVICE OF WRITTEN CHARGE OR REQUISITION OTHERWISE THAN BY POST
(1) A written charge or requisition to which section 4A applies may, instead of being served by post, be served on a person outside the United Kingdom in accordance with arrangements made by the Secretary of State.
(2) But where the person is in a participating country, the written charge or requisition may be served in accordance with those arrangements only if one of the following conditions is met.
(3) The conditions are—
(a) that the correct address of the person is unknown,
(b) that it has not been possible to serve the written charge or requisition by post,

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(c) that there are good reasons for thinking that service by post will not be effective or is inappropriate."" Page 386, line 21, leave out from beginning to "the" in line 22 and insert—


"(1) Section 74 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (conviction as evidence of commission of offence) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1) (commission of offence by non-defendant) for the words from ", where to do so" to "committed that offence" there is substituted "that that person committed that offence, where evidence of his having done so is admissible".
(3) In subsection (3) (commission of offence by defendant)"

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Schedule 33 [Repeals]:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendments Nos. 242 to 246C:


    Page 390, line 30, at end insert—

ALLOCATION AND SENDING OF OFFENCES

Short title and chapterExtent of repeal
Bankers' Books Evidence Act 1879 (c. 11)In section 4, the paragraph beginning "Where the proceedings".
In section 5, the paragraph beginning "Where the proceedings".
Explosive Substances Act 1883 (c. 3)Section 6(3).
Criminal Justice Act 1925 (c. 86)Section 49(2).
Administration of Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1933 (c. 36)In section 2(2), paragraphs (aa) to (ac), paragraphs (iA) and (iB), and the words from "and in paragraph (iA)" to the end.
Criminal Justice Act 1948 (c. 58)Section 41(5A).
In section 80, the definition of "Court of summary jurisdiction".
Backing of Warrants (Republic of Ireland) Act 1965 (c. 45)In the Schedule, in paragraph 4, the words "and section 2 of the Poor Prisoners Defence Act 1930 (legal aid before examining justices)".
Criminal Procedure (Attendance of Witnesses) Act 1965 (c. 69)Section 2(5).
Criminal Justice Act 1967 (c. 80)In section 9(1), the words ", other than committal proceedings".
In section 36(1), the definition of "committal proceedings".
Criminal Appeal Act 1968 (c. 19)In section 9(2), the words from "section 41" to "either way offence".
Theft Act 1968 (c. 60)Section 27(4A).
Criminal Justice Act 1972 (c. 71)In section 46, subsections (1A) to (1C).
Bail Act 1976 (c. 63)In section 3, subsections (8A) and (8B), and the subsection (10) inserted by paragraph 12(b) of Schedule 9 to the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994.
Section 5(6A)(a)(i).
Interpretation Act 1978 (c. 30)In Schedule 1, in the definition of "Committed for trial", paragraph (a).
Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 (c. 2)Section 147(2).
Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 (c. 43)Sections 4 to 8, and the cross-heading preceding section 4.
Section 24(1A) and (2).
In section 25, subsections (3) to (8).
In section 33(1), paragraph (b) and the word "and" immediately preceding it.
Section 42.
Section 97A.
Section 103.
Section 106.
In section 128, in subsection (1)(b), the words "inquiring into or", and in each of subsections (1A)(a), (3A), (3C)(a) and (3E)(a), the word "5,".
In section 130(1), the word "5,".
Section 145(1)(f).
In section 150(1), the definition of "committal proceedings".
In section 155(2)(a), the words "8 (except subsection (9))".
In Schedule 3, paragraph 2(a).
In Schedule 5, paragraph 2.
Criminal Attempts Act 1981 (c. 47)In section 2(2)(g), the words "or committed for trial".
Supreme Court Act 1981 (c. 54)Section 76(5).
Section 77(4).
In section 81— (a) in subsection (1)(a), the words "who has been committed in custody for appearance before the Crown Court or in relation to whose case a notice of transfer has been given under a relevant transfer provision or", (b) subsection (1)(g)(i), (c) subsection (7).
Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (c. 60)Section 62(10)(a)(i).
In section 71, the paragraph beginning "Where the proceedings".
Section 76(9).
Section 78(3).
Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 (c. 23)In section 16, subsections (1)(b), (2)(aa) and (12).
In section 23A(1)(b), the words from "under" to "1998".
Criminal Justice Act 1987 (c. 38)Sections 4 to 6.
In section 11— (a) subsection (2)(a), (b) subsection (3), (c) in subsection (7), the word "(3),", (d) in subsection (8), the word "(3),", (e) subsections (9) and (10), (f) in subsection (11), paragraphs (a) and (d).
Criminal Justice Act 1988 (c. 33)Section 23(5).
Section 24(5).
In section 26, the paragraph beginning "This section shall not apply".
In section 27, the paragraph beginning "This section shall not apply".
Section 30(4A).
In section 40(1), the words "were disclosed to a magistrates' court inquiring into the offence as examining justices or".
Section 41.
Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (c. 53)Section 11(3A). Section 13(7). Section 16(6A).
Section 20(8A).
Criminal Justice Act 1991 (c. 53)Section 53. Schedule 6.
Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 (c. 33)Section 34(2)(a). Section 36(2)(a).
Section 37(2)(a).
Criminal Procedure and Investigations Act 1996 (c. 25)In section 1(2), paragraphs (a) to (c) and, in paragraph (cc), the words from "under" to the end.
In section 5, subsections (2) and (3).
In section 13(1), paragraphs (a) to (c) of the modified section 3(8).
Section 28(1)(b).
Section 68.
Schedule 2.
Crime and Disorder Act 1998 (c. 37)In section 50(1), the words "unless the accused falls to be dealt with under section 51 below".
In Schedule 3, in paragraph 2, sub-paragraphs (4) and (5), paragraph 12, and in paragraph 13(2), the words from "unless" to the end.
Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999 (c. 23)Section 27(10).
In section 42(3), paragraphs (a) and (b).
Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 (c. 6)In section 89(2)(b), the words "trial or". In section 140(1)(b), the words "was committed to the Crown Court to be tried or dealt with or by which he".
In Schedule 11, paragraph 9."

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Page 391, leave out lines 23 and 24.


    Page 391, leave out lines 29 to 31.


    Page 391, line 34, column 2, leave out "7" and insert "11"


    Page 392, line 5, at end insert—


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