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Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, I want to say that she has been very persuasive. However, I asked her to name a few of the people or organisations that supplied the view that this is a retrograde step. Will she now tell the House what organisations support the view that she has put forward so persuasively?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, your Lordships will know that when these proposals were being canvassed through the Auld review and so on, considerable consultations took place and support was voiced for the proposals. I cannot give noble Lords a list of all those who replied. However, I can certainly tell your Lordships that when I have been questioned outside this House about these provisions, I am usually asked by members of the public not why we are doing this but why we are not doing even more.

Noble Lords will know that I chair the Inter-Ministerial Committee on Domestic Violence, which deals with the subject of victims and witnesses. I emphasise that the thrust of many of the concerns

11 Nov 2003 : Column 1245

voiced there is: "We do not understand why those decisions were made. Help us to understand. What is the basis upon which judges came to the decisions? What rule of thumb was applied? How does this operate? What do they take into account, why do they take it into account, and how does it work?".

We say that the framework gives everyone a basis upon which they can better understand what is being done. It is of no comfort to victims and witnesses to be told that an offence was committed by a juvenile in need; they need to understand why the court came to the decision that that should mitigate the sentence. They need to be told, and we believe that these provisions enable that to be done.

I shall certainly be happy to supply my noble friend with a fuller response about those who urged us to implement this measure. However, since taking on the role of Minister of State with responsibility for criminal justice and dealing with this issue since June, I say openly that not one member of the public has approached me or talked to me about this matter saying that he or she does not want this measure. That is the reality.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, has the noble Baroness ever heard a judge pass a sentence in a murder case without explaining the reasons for, and factors behind, the tariff which he imposes?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I am reminded that this is Report stage. Therefore, I cannot give the noble Lord the courtesy of a reply. If I were able to do so, I would say that my experience is not held universally by all other members of the Bar.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken so forcefully in support of the amendments. I am particularly struck by the experience of the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, who referred to cases in which she had been involved as a lawyer. She remarked, as did others, on the propensity of children for rapid change and said that it is a mistake to abandon flexibility in a system which sentences children. I believe that that must go to the core of what we are discussing today.

The Minister says that there is a solution here, that paragraph 8 of Schedule 19 provides all the flexibility that one needs, and that here the judge does not have to sentence for 15 years but can apply a panoply of aggravating or mitigating circumstances. Of course, when the noble Baroness uses that argument, she is arguing against the whole of Schedule 19 because the logical extension would be to leave it to the judge entirely.

The noble Baroness will know that, with some reluctance, I have agreed to go down a very stony path in agreeing with her that paragraph 8 of Schedule 19 may be sufficient refuge for adults. However, I cannot accept that it is a sufficient refuge for children. I wish to test the opinion of the House.

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4.54 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 225) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 202; Not-Contents, 113.

Division No. 1


Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Blood, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chester, Bp.
Chorley, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geraint, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greengross, B.
Habgood, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Hereford, Bp.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hylton, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lindsay, E.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montrose, D.
Morgan, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Newby, L.
Newcastle, Bp.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parkinson, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Prashar, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogan, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stern, B.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Vinson, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B. [Teller]
Walpole, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wolfson, L.


Alli, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bhatia, L.
Billingham, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fitt, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gregson, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harrison, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Simon, V.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

11 Nov 2003 : Column 1248

5.6 p.m.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 225A:

    Before Schedule 19, insert the following new schedule—

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