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Lord Kingsland: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her comprehensive reply—indeed, adapting her own expression, comprehensive and clear. The only difficulty I have is that on the two issues I raised in my opening—those of inclusionary versus exclusionary and of propensity—she has stuck to the text in Part 10.

4 Nov 2003 : Column 741

There is an enormous difference between an inclusionary rule and an exclusionary rule. It affects the burden of proof and, in addition, in the version we have before us under Clause 84, in only three out of the eight categories is the defendant entitled to question the inclusion at all. In the other five categories, the inclusion is automatic. So it is not just a question of the reversion of the burden of proof; it is a question of whether the opportunity exists at all for the defendants to protest about the inclusion of bad character.

I turn to the question of propensity. I want to state again, as I did in the intervention which the noble Baroness kindly let me make, that the Law Commission's draft excludes propensity in its entirety as a matter in issue in the case. It is true that provision is made in the Law Commission's draft for similar fact evidence; but similar fact evidence is not an example of propensity. It is evidence which goes directly to the issue in the case. That could not have been made clearer by my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern in the case of the DPP v P.

As your Lordships know well, the noble Baroness has sparkled in the manner in which she has promoted and protected the Bill. We can only speculate on what her real feelings are about some of the issues that it raises. Perhaps an expert cryptologist—my noble friend Lady Trumpington, for example, who long ago worked in Bletchley Park—might be able to discern between the lines what the noble Baroness really thinks. I know what she should think. She should think that Part 10 is an affront to the presumption of innocence. For that reason, I shall ask the House to divide on the amendment.

6 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 174A) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 182; Not-Contents, 111.

Division No. 3


Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Biffen, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Cameron of Lochbroom, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chester, Bp.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Craig of Radley, L.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Hanson, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hylton, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Judd, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lindsay, E.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E. [Teller]
Marlesford, L.
Marshall of Knightsbridge, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Mishcon, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oxford, Bp.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Prashar, B.
Rees, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vinson, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Wigoder, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.


Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Andrews, B.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fitt, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nicol, B.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Radice, L.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Simon, V.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stallard, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thornton, B.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

4 Nov 2003 : Column 743

6.11 p.m.

Clause 81 ["Bad character"]:

Lord Kingsland moved Amendment No. 174B:

    Leave out Clause 81.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 82 [Abolition of common law rules]:

Lord Kingsland moved Amendment No. 174C:

    Leave out Clause 82.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 83 [Non-defendant's bad character]:

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