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Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, the Minister has not answered the new point that I made. The Scottish Executive has stated in the new Criminal Procedure (Amendment) Bill that the term "counsel" includes a solicitor with extended rights. Would it not be desirable for the two Acts, which will come into law at a similar time, one in Westminster and one in the Scots Parliament, to match?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the Scottish Parliament or Executive have decided to make it clear in their Bill that "counsel" includes a solicitor with extended rights because there is a difference between counsel and a solicitor. The extended rights of audience allow solicitors to have rights that they did not have hitherto. Our legislation encompasses both counsel and/or solicitor, so the two terms—solicitor and counsel—are already there. That is why we do not need it in this Bill, although I understand why the clarification may have been thought necessary in the other legislation, which previously referred only to counsel and not to solicitor. I hope that I have been sufficiently clear.

The Earl of Mar and Kellie: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her extended answer and to the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour, for having rather hotter information than me.

I tabled the amendment to seek clarity, which I think I have got from the Minister, provided that this type of activity does not spill over into the High Court of Justiciary on some sort of appeal. At this point, I shall rely on the Minister's insistence that that is all implicit. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 129 [Consent to other offence being dealt with]:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendments Nos. 256 to 260:



    Page 67, line 19, leave out "category 2"


    Page 67, line 21, at end insert—


"(2A) The Secretary of State must serve notice on the person that he has received the request for consent, unless he is satisfied that it would not be practicable to do so."
Page 67, line 25, at end insert—


"(4A) If the Secretary of State decides that question in the affirmative he must decide whether the appropriate judge would send the case to him (for his decision whether the person was to be extradited) under sections 80 to 92 if—
(a) the person were in the United Kingdom, and

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(b) the judge were required to proceed under section 80 in respect of the offence for which the Secretary of State's consent is requested.
(4B) If the Secretary of State decides the question in subsection (4A) in the negative he must refuse his consent."
Page 67, line 28, at end insert ", 96 or 97"

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 130 [Consent to further extradition to category 2 territory]:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendments Nos. 261 to 265:


    Page 67, line 35, after "territory" insert "(the requesting territory)"


    Page 67, line 41, leave out "category 2 territory referred to in subsection (1)(a)" and insert "requesting territory"


    Page 68, line 2, at end insert—


"(2A) The Secretary of State must serve notice on the person that he has received the request for consent, unless he is satisfied that it would not be practicable to do so."
Page 68, line 6, at end insert—


"(4A) If the Secretary of State decides that question in the affirmative he must decide whether the appropriate judge would send the case to him (for his decision whether the person was to be extradited) under sections 80 to 92 if—
(a) the person were in the United Kingdom, and
(b) the judge were required to proceed under section 80 in respect of the offence for which the Secretary of State's consent is requested.
(4B) If the Secretary of State decides the question in subsection (4A) in the negative he must refuse his consent."
Page 68, line 9, at end insert ", 96 or 97"

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 131 [Consent to further extradition to category 1 territory]:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendments Nos. 266 to 268:


    Page 68, line 16, after "territory" insert "(the requesting territory)"


    Page 68, line 22, leave out "category 2" and insert "requesting"


    Page 68, line 24, at end insert—


"(2A) The Secretary of State must serve notice on the person that he has received the request for consent, unless he is satisfied that it would not be practicable to do so."

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 132 [Return of person to serve remainder of sentence]:

[Amendment No. 268A not moved.]

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 269:


    Page 69, line 6, at end insert—


"(5) But subsection (4) does not apply if—
(a) the person was extradited for the purpose of being prosecuted for an offence, and
(b) the person has not been convicted of the offence or of any other offence in respect of which he was permitted to be dealt with in the category 2 territory.
(6) In a case falling within subsection (5), time during which the person was not in the United Kingdom as a result of his extradition counts as time served by him as part of his sentence only if it was spent in custody in connection with the offence or any other offence in respect of which he was permitted to be dealt with in the territory."

30 Oct 2003 : Column 384

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 136 [Documents sent by facsimile]:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 270:


    Leave out Clause 136.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 137 [Receivable documents]:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 271:


    Leave out Clause 137.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 138 [Persons serving sentences outside territory where convicted]:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 272:


    Page 72, line 12, leave out from "section" to "after" and insert "86(5) has effect as if"

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 140 [Extradition offences: person sentenced for offence]:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 273:


    Page 74, line 44, leave out paragraph (b) and insert—


"(b) a sentence of imprisonment or another form of detention for a term of 4 months or a greater punishment has been imposed in the category 2 territory in respect of the conduct;"

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 144 [Issue of Part 3 warrant]:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 274:


    Page 77, line 10, leave out subsection (8).

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 148 [Dealing with person for other offences]:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 275:


    Page 79, line 14, leave out paragraph (d).

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 154 [Remission of punishment for other offences]:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 276:


    Page 82, line 26, after "from" insert "—


(i) a category 1 territory under law of the territory corresponding to Part 1 of this Act, or
(ii) "

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, the amendment makes a minor correction to the Bill. Clause 154 covers a situation in which a person has an outstanding UK sentence but is extradited for a different offence. By virtue of the role of speciality, we can punish the person only for the offence for which he was extradited.

30 Oct 2003 : Column 385

An example may help to illustrate what I am saying. Let us say that a person is serving a three-month prison sentence in the UK for theft. He escapes from prison and, in the course of doing so, murders a prison officer. He flees to Canada, and we seek his extradition in respect of the murder, which is clearly the most serious crime that he has committed. When we get him back we cannot seek to punish him for theft or enforce the outstanding prison sentence, because that was not the crime for which he was extradited.

Clause 154 provides that in such a situation the punishment must be treated as remitted, but for all other purposes—for example, in criminal records—it must be treated as a conviction. However, the clause applies only in cases in which the person has been extradited to the UK from a category 2 country. Clearly the situation could equally well arise in cases involving extradition from a Part 1 country. The amendment simply amends the clause so that it applies whichever country the person was extradited from. I am sure that your Lordships see the sense of that. I beg to move.


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