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Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her customary openness and honesty in her responses, which we always value. I appreciate that the Government feel that the draftsmen have it right. The Government are saying, "We are not slavishly copying the framework decision; we are trying to achieve some kind of consistency throughout". Of course, I can then point the Minister to Amendment No. 328 in the Government's name, which will impose on the framework list of 32 offences the European general wording that has been agreed.

We are saying that we consider it appropriate for the proper wording to be put on the face of the Bill. We accept that the Government have made considerable progress in the way that they have defined this part of the Bill. However, I have to say that, for the safeguards that we believe are necessary, the progress is not sufficient. I wish to test the opinion of the House.

7.8 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 16) shall be agreed to?

22 Oct 2003 : Column 1676

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 112; Not-Contents, 106.

Division No. 5


Addington, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Fookes, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Glentoran, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Higgins, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E. [Teller]
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Ullswater, V.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wolfson, L.


Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dixon, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Inge, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Islwyn, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mitchell, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Newcastle, Bp.
Nicol, B.
Parekh, L.
Patel, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

22 Oct 2003 : Column 1677

7.18 p.m.

[Amendments Nos. 17 to 19 not moved.]

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendments Nos. 20 and 21:

    Page 2, line 42, leave out paragraph (a).

    Page 2, line 46, leave out paragraph (a).

On Question, amendments agreed to.

[Amendment No. 22 not moved.]

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 23:

    Page 3, line 2, leave out "Order in Council" and insert "order made by the Secretary of State"

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 24 not moved.]

22 Oct 2003 : Column 1678

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 25:

    Page 3, line 3, leave out "Order in Council" and insert "order"

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 26 not moved.]

Clause 3 [Arrest under certified Part 1 warrant]:

Viscount Bridgeman moved Amendment No. 27:

    Page 3, line 27, at end insert—

"( ) For the purposes of this section—
"constable" shall be a constable of the United Kingdom, and "customs officer" shall be a United Kingdom customs officer."

The noble Viscount said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 27 I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 40, 193 and 203.

The amendments focus on the definition of who is entitled to make an arrest or a provisional arrest under Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill. Our debate on those issues in Committee was quite productive, but I am still not completely satisfied with the drafting of the Bill as we now have it.

Initially my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts put forward a series of amendments aiming to ascertain whether Royal Parks Police and the other types of police as listed in Section 86(3) of the Police Reform Act 2002 would be eligible to make an arrest under a warrant. The problem with the clause as it is drafted is that there is no clear definition of "constable". The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, was able to satisfy us in part, and the omission of "customs officer" from those allowed to make a legitimate Part 2 arrest has been rectified by a later government amendment.

It is clear that we all agree that non-UK constables should not be allowed to arrest our citizens and that all extradition requests should be carried out using our police. However, we are still concerned that the Bill as drafted leaves a loophole and does not provide an adequate safeguard to stop a foreign constable making an arrest.

Since the Bill was first printed in the Commons, we have made progress on Clause 3, but subsection (2) still reads:

    "The warrant may be executed by a constable or a customs officer in any part of the United Kingdom".

Our amendments would amend Clauses 3, 5, 72 and 74 to make it crystal clear that "constable" and "customs officer" mean United Kingdom constables and customs officers. I do not think that the assurance from the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, that the common-law definition of "constable" would bar any foreign constable from making an arrest for extradition is a satisfactory guarantee. Our amendment would put the question beyond any doubt. I hope the Minister will look at it with some sympathy. I beg to move.

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