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It shall be the duty of the chief officer of each probation area—
(a) to establish consultation arrangements with local magistrates' courts committees and local communities,
(b) to assist the probation service in the performance of its duties of reducing offending, and
(c) to supervise offenders in the community."

The noble Baroness said: I have never had the privilege of moving an amendment twice in one day, but today is the day. I moved the amendment at 1.30 this morning. It is an unusual position. Those who have already caught up with Hansard have given me

15 Oct 2003 : Column 949

the benefit of the doubt and told me that they thought I pulled a marvellous coup this morning, and that I carried out some sort of ambush to count the Government out. Would that it were so. I was one of the Front-Bench Members who agreed that we should continue until the amendment had been completed. It had not occurred to me that there were not sufficient Peers in the Committee to see the business through. I thought, therefore, that I had disposed of it in the proper manner last night. I have spoken to the Government this morning, and we hope very briefly to dispose of the matter in very much the proper manner today.

The amendment was tabled after we received representation from the Magistrates' Association. It was debated in full earlier this morning, so I will not go into detail, nor will I invite any other Members of the Committee to respond. All that could be said was said earlier today. The clause would quite simply re-establish local consultation between the probation service and magistrates. That statutory consultation was killed off following the introduction of the Criminal Justice and Court Services Act 2000. The Magistrates' Association made the point that, despite the well-meaning attempts of the Government to provide alternative means of ensuring that there was liaison, that has not worked in its eyes. It wants the re-establishment of statutory provision.

In that case, I seek to repeat the same process, but perhaps with a rather different result at this stage. I beg to move.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I have listened very carefully this morning—although I confess that I was rather surprised at the outcome—to what the noble Baroness said about the Magistrates' Association's view. I share her concern that the association must have confidence in the arrangements. My honourable friend the Minister responsible for prisons and probation, Paul Goggins, has discussed those issues with the association already. I can certainly undertake that the National Probation Service will follow the issues up as a matter of priority. I know, for instance, that it is setting up a communication forum. I shall write to the noble Baroness with details before Report. I ask her not to repeat the process of last night and to allow us to move on more swiftly to other business.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I explained to the Minister's office this morning that I had been in contact with the chairman of the Magistrates' Association and that we wish to press ahead. We accept the Government's good efforts in talking. I understand that that will proceed regardless. It is considered important, and, since I have a duty to the association, I wish to test the opinion of the Committee.

3.32 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 230ZA) shall be agreed to?

15 Oct 2003 : Column 950

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 145; Not-Contents, 110.

Division No. 1


Ackner, L.
Alderdice, L.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor, V.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Carrington, L.
Chan, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cobbold, L.
Condon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Ezra, L.
Fookes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Goodhart, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montrose, D.
Moser, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newcastle, Bp.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Plumb, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogan, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tanlaw, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Ullswater, V.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wigoder, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.


Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dixon, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fitt, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Gregson, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Haskins, L.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Patel, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Warner, L.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

15 Oct 2003 : Column 951

3.43 p.m.

Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 230A.

15 Oct 2003 : Column 952

    Before Clause 284, insert the following new clause—

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