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Lord Graham of Edmonton: We have had a Whip round!

Viscount Bledisloe: I was disappointed by the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Filkin. I had hoped that he would accept the invitation addressed to him by the noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden. Surely, if this procedure is to work, we should not send Bills to Grand Committee where a sizeable proportion of the opinion in the House does not agree. If the Grand Committee process is to work, the Bills that go there should be Bills that virtually everyone concerned with them agrees should be dealt with in that way. If the House is going to send Bills, by reason of Front Bench majorities, that the interested and concerned Back-Benchers think should be debated on the Floor of the House, the Grand Committee procedure will not work.

6 May 2003 : Column 969

Perhaps I may say two other things. First, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Carter—

Lord Dubs: My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for giving way. The same arguments were used before we went into Grand Committee with the Police (Northern Ireland) Bill. I have to say that I am satisfied that everyone who took part in the Grand Committee sessions were satisfied that all the important criteria for proper Committee scrutiny was met by that procedure on that Bill. It was certainly a controversial Bill; it was certainly a Bill that had constitutional implications; it had serious human rights implications; and it was a satisfactory process.

Viscount Bledisloe: My Lords, having not taken part in it, I cannot comment on whether the process was satisfactory. It was—this may not be a good point and I may regret making it—a Bill of specialist interest relating, presumably, only to Northern Ireland; whereas this Bill relates to the whole of the country.

In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Carter, he is of course right to say that if the Government indicate clearly that they will think again, the proposer of an amendment would be mad to press it to a Division when he may get something jolly good by negotiation. But that does not mean that where positions are really entrenched, it is not much better to put it to a Division in Committee so that the matter can be resolved.

Secondly, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Cope, of course the Procedure Committee recommended that more Bills should be committed to Grand Committee; but that does not mean that everything should be, especially not Bills of such constitutional significance that have raised so much concern.

My proposal that only Part 1 should remain on the Floor of the House was advanced in a spirit of compromise. Of course I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Cope, that some Bills may be difficult to split and would require the usual channels to sit down with a microscope to study them to decide whether Clause 63(b) was appropriate. But it was clear from our debate on Second Reading—which I think that the noble Lord did not hear—that Part 1 concerns a totally separate matter and that almost all the points of criticism were raised about it.

If I am told that it is wrong to keep only Part 1 on the Floor of the House, I should be perfectly content to keep the whole Bill on the Floor of the House. I was trying to be co-operative; but this Bill is perfectly suitable for such treatment.

We submit that this is a battle between Whip convenience and principle; and I beg leave to test the opinion of the House.

4.19 p.m.

On Question, Whether the manuscript amendment shall be agreed to?

6 May 2003 : Column 970

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 94; Not-Contents, 172.

Division No. 1


Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Arran, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Bledisloe, V. [Teller]
Boothroyd, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Brightman, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Butterworth, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chan, L.
Colwyn, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Denham, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Falkland, V.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenway, L.
Hogg, B.
Hooper, B.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
Laird, L.
Lyell, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
Marlesford, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Moore of Wolvercote, L.
Morgan, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Naseby, L.
Northbrook, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parkinson, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L. [Teller]
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Renton, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Foscote, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheppard of Didgemere, L.
Slim, V.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strange, B.
Swinfen, L.
Tanlaw, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Trumpington, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warnock, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.


Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blood, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chelmsford, Bp.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Croham, L.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fearn, L.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Gavron, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gregson, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hanham, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howe, E.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Luke, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Manchester, Bp.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Moser, L.
Newby, L.
Nicol, B.
Northover, B.
Ouseley, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prashar, B.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rawlings, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Rogan, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L. [Teller]
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Uddin, B.
Vinson, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

6 May 2003 : Column 971

On Question, Motion agreed to.

6 May 2003 : Column 972

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