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Lord Rogan: My Lords, I have listened to the remarks of the noble Lord, the Lord Privy Seal. Nevertheless, I wish to test the will of the House.

1.18 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 14C) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 91; Not-Contents, 139.

Division No. 2

CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Bell, L.
Biffen, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bridgeman, V. [Teller]
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Erroll, E.
Feldman, L.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Freeman, L.
Geddes, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hanham, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Higgins, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jopling, L.
Laird, L. [Teller]
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Noakes, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Peel, E.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Reay, L.
Renton, L.
Rogan, L.
Saatchi, L.
Seccombe, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trumpington, B.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Wilcox, B.
Windlesham, L.
Wolfson, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hamwee, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jones, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lipsey, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Northover, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sandberg, L.
Sawyer, L.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stern, B.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

3 Apr 2003 : Column 1451

1.27 p.m.

On Question, Amendment No. 14 agreed to.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I beg to move that further consideration of Commons amendments be adjourned until later this afternoon.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

[The Sitting was suspended from 1.28 to 2 p.m. for Judicial Business and to 3 p.m. for Public Business.]

Afghanistan: Security of Aid Workers

The Earl of Sandwich asked Her Majesty's Government:

    How they propose to ensure the security of humanitarian aid workers who operate in regions of Afghanistan outside the capital.

Baroness Crawley: My Lords, employers of humanitarian aid workers are responsible for the safety and security of their staff. Reputable NGOs have detailed safety and evacuation plans and assess the security of their staff regularly. DfID requires that all NGOs it works with have full safety and evacuation procedures in place. We hope that the security sector reform programme currently being undertaken will in time bring improved security for everyone in Afghanistan, including NGO workers. The international and joint civil/military provincial reconstruction teams have an important part to play in that process.

The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, the callous murder of an International Red Cross aid worker last week brings into sharp focus the lack of security in areas outside Kabul. I thank the noble Baroness for her reply but, as we are seeing now in Basra, will not local people be confused when they see that the new US units—they are called reconstruction teams in Afghanistan—are soldiers in uniform bringing them humanitarian aid?

3 Apr 2003 : Column 1452

Will not this undermine the trust that people have in their own local Afghan NGOs and in the aid workers, a trust which has been built up over many years?

Baroness Crawley: My Lords, the noble Earl is right. These new reconstruction teams are being set up. Three US-led provincial reconstruction teams have begun work in three provinces outside Kabul. One of the great concerns, not only of NGOs but of everyone concerned about the development of Afghanistan, is that the people in the provinces outside Kabul need to make greater links with the new Afghan transitional government. Reconstruction teams are being set up but they are not intended as primary security forces, although initial indications are that there is improved security in the locations where they are deployed.

The teams have three aims: to assist in extending the Afghan Government's authority; to develop a stable and secure environment in the regions outside Kabul; and to facilitate security sector reform and reconstruction.

Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, what effect has the Iraq war had on the recruitment and funding of ISAF? Can the Minister confirm that the Germans and Dutch, the current commanders of ISAF, have threatened to withdraw?

Baroness Crawley: My Lords, I can say categorically that the Iraq conflict has had no effect on the recruitment or budget funding of the International Security and Assistance Force, which is permanently in Afghanistan. There is no question of the Dutch or Germans, who are currently leading ISAF, withdrawing. Every country has a six months' term. UK forces led ISAF for the first six months; then the Turkish forces for six months, and now the Dutch and Germans. When their six months' term comes to an end, another country will take over.


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