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14After Clause 13, insert the following new clause—
(1) In paragraph 8 of Schedule 3 to the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 (c.32) (disqualification for membership of district policing partnership) for sub-paragraph (2) substitute—
"(2) A person is disqualified for being an independent member of a DPP if—
(a) he has been convicted in Northern Ireland or elsewhere of any offence and has had passed on him a sentence of imprisonment or detention, and
(b) the relevant period has not ended.
(3) The relevant period is the period of five years beginning with the person's discharge in respect of the offence.
(4) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (3) the following are to be treated as the discharge of a person (whether or not his release is subject to conditions)—
(a) his release on licence;
(b) his release in pursuance of a grant of remission.
(5) Sub-paragraph (4) does not apply in relation to the release of a person in respect of an offence if he is required to return to prison or detention for a further period in respect of the offence.
(6) Subject to sub-paragraph (7), the reference in sub-paragraph (2) to a sentence of imprisonment or detention does not include a suspended sentence.
(7) Sub-paragraph (6) does not apply in relation to a suspended sentence that has been ordered to take effect.
(8) In this paragraph "suspended sentence" means a sentence of imprisonment or detention that is ordered not to take effect unless the conditions specified in the order are met."
(2) Subsection (1) comes into force in accordance with provision made by the Secretary of State by order."

Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 14, to which I spoke with Amendment No. 13.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 14.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)

Lord Glentoran rose to move, as an amendment to the Motion that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 14:

14Aleave out "agree" and insert "disagree".

The noble Lord said: My Lords, as I have already indicated, I should like to press Amendment No. 14A and take the opinion of the House.

Moved, as an amendment to the Motion that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 14, leave out "agree" and insert "disagree".—(Lord Glentoran.)

3 Apr 2003 : Column 1442

12.50 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 14A) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 94; Not-Contents, 147.

Division No. 1


Aberdare, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Bramall, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Cobbold, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Cox, B.
Crathorne, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Higgins, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jopling, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Noakes, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Reay, L.
Renton, L.
Rogan, L.
Saatchi, L.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trumpington, B.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wilcox, B.
Windlesham, L.
Wolfson, L.


Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Freyberg, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hamwee, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jones, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lipsey, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mishcon, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northover, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Perry of Walton, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Sandberg, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stern, B.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

3 Apr 2003 : Column 1443

1 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker (Lord Geddes): My Lords, before calling Amendment No. 14B, I must advise the House that, if it is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendment No. 14C due to pre-emption.

[Amendment No. 14B not moved.]

3 Apr 2003 : Column 1444


14CLine 31, at end insert—
"(3) The Secretary of State shall not make an order under subsection (2) until acts of completion have occurred.
(4) In subsection (3), "acts of completion" means—
(a) that the decommissioning of firearms, ammunition and explosives held by one of the organisations specified under Schedule 2 to the Terrorism Act 2000 has occurred and has been verified under section 3 of the Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act 1997 by the Commission;
(b) there has been a statement from that organisation ordering the termination of acts of paramilitary violence by that organisation, including—
(i) shootings;
(ii) beatings;
(iii) threats;
(iv) intimidations; and
(c) there has been a statement from that organisation removing any threats to those who left their homes due to intimidation by that organisation.
(5) The Secretary of State may by order add further acts to those listed in subsection (4) above."

Lord Rogan: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 14C as an amendment to Commons Amendment No. 14.

Noble Lords may indeed express some surprise that I am moving this amendment today. As noble Lords will be aware, it was printed yesterday along with other amendments standing in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton. I hasten to add that this is not a tabling error. I, too, was surprised to note that the amendment had been withdrawn. However, I would suggest that, until two days' ago, it would not only have received the support of the Ulster Unionist Party but perhaps even the support of the whole House.

The very notion of convicted criminals sitting on DPPs is a hard pill to swallow for the majority of the people in Northern Ireland. Further, these provisions fly directly in the face of the Patten report. Although the Government have hitherto justified this Bill as if it were implementing Patten in full, this disqualification provision could not be further from Patten. As my colleague, the right honourable David Trimble said in another place last week, according to Patten independent members should,

    "reinforce the credentials and credibility of the DPP as a whole".

Moreover, according to Patten, they should be selected to,

    "represent business and trade union interests and to provide expertise in matters pertaining to community safety".

It is difficult to see where Patten's vision of DPPs involved convicted criminals.

Surely this is purely a move on the Government's part to encourage republicans to join the Policing Board and the DPPs. However good-intentioned that premise may be, it is entirely premature. Clearly, too much trust has been placed on the republican movement to deliver when recent events, which I shall

3 Apr 2003 : Column 1445

not repeat today, have proved its members incapable of leaving terror and violence behind. We have witnessed no progress on decommissioning. There have been no acts of completion.

That is why it is entirely reasonable and prudent to include in the Bill a firm assurance that these provisions will not be introduced prior to, or, as Jane Kennedy suggested in another place "in the context of", acts of completion. These provisions should be introduced only after we have seen not only positive signs from the republican movement—and, of course, the loyalist paramilitaries—that they are moving away from violence, but also action.

As the amendment outlines, paramilitary violence extends beyond the traditional definition of gun and bomb attacks. Acts of completion must also include an end to beatings, threats and intimidation. Those exiled through intimidation must be allowed to return. Is it not sensible to assume that those who wish to join the DPPs should be able to refrain from criminal activity, and encourage others in their community to do likewise?

The Government have talked long and hard about "acts of completion", but we have yet to see a tangible definition. The people of Northern Ireland remain in the dark as to what acts of completion will involve—how they will be implemented and monitored. It is therefore entirely sensible to tie acts of completion to provisions under Schedule 2 of the Terrorism Act 2000 and Section 3 of the Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act 1997. I beg to move.

Moved, That Amendment No. 14C, as an amendment to Commons Amendment No. 14, be agreed to.—(Lord Rogan.)

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