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Baroness Blackstone: I am not sure why the subsection uses the term "a body" rather than "a body or a person". I suspect that the lawyers will tell us that when drafting legislation of this sort "a body" includes a person as well as some form of organisation. That person might be an MEP or an MP. However, the point is that we cannot concede that any of these bodies or persons should complain in their own right without a request from people or businesses who live in the vicinity. I believe that that is clear.

Lord Avebury: The ward councillor or MP might happen to live in the vicinity of the establishment. In that scenario, he would not be representing only himself; he might also be representing his constituents.

Baroness Blackstone: Of course.

Baroness Buscombe: I fear that I am not happy with the Minister's reply. From it, I understand that a body such as a local ginger group or an amenity association can come under the terms of Clause 13(3)(b) but not a Member of Parliament or a Member of the European Parliament. There is confusion here. I am not happy with the Minister's reply. It is important that Members of Parliament—be they Members of the European Parliament, Members of the national Parliament or local ward councillors—should be able to represent persons living in the vicinity, whether in terms of what might be classed a public right or in their own right.

I am not happy with the Minister's reply, which conflicts with an earlier response. On that basis I wish to test the opinion of the Committee.

4.56 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 147) shall be agreed to?

13 Jan 2003 : Column 39

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 112; Not-Contents, 111.

Division No. 1


Addington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Bowness, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brigstocke, B.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalfont, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Dahrendorf, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eames, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Falkland, V.
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northover, B.
O'Cathain, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Rawlings, B.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Waddington, L.
Walmsley, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Windlesham, L.


Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fitt, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greenway, L.
Gregson, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harrison, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jeger, B.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mar, C.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Nicol, B.
Orme, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Slim, V.
Stallard, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strange, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Williamson of Horton, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

13 Jan 2003 : Column 40

5.6 p.m.

[Amendment No. 148 not moved.]

Viscount Falkland moved Amendment No. 149:

    Page 8, line 28, leave out from "authority" to end of line 31 and insert "for the area in which the premises are situated"

The noble Viscount said: It is our contention that this is a further important amendment if local democratic accountability is to be preserved. Clause 18 provides that applications are to be granted in the absence of "relevant representations" made by,

    "an interested party or responsible authority".

The Bill requires a licensing authority to promote the licensing objectives set out in Clause 4 and to have regard to its licensing statement and, as the Bill stands, to any guidance issued by the Secretary of State. It

13 Jan 2003 : Column 41

ought to be the case that a licensing authority should have the power to refuse an application for a premises licence where the licensing objectives would not be promoted by granting the licence and/or where the grant of a licence would be contrary to the licensing statement or the guidance issued by the Secretary of State. The licensing authority must, therefore, be entitled to take into account the licensing objectives, its policy and the guidance, even where there are no relevant representations from interested parties.

Under Clause 13(4)(d) the licensing authority may make relevant representations only in its capacity as an environmental health authority. The amendment is designed to enable the licensing authority to draw to its own attention by means of making relevant representations the impact of the grant of a licence on the licensing objectives, its policy and central government guidance.

The clause as drafted narrowly limits the grounds on which a local authority can make relevant representations to its statutory functions in relation to environmental health. But local authorities have much wider responsibilities for crime and disorder under the Crime and Disorder Act, and for the environmental and social well-being of their areas under the Local Government Act 2000.

In addition, local authorities have obligations under statute, in common law and under the European Convention on Human Rights. It would be wrong, therefore, to prevent them from making relevant representations to the extent that these responsibilities required them to do so, given that to do so would promote the licensing objectives. I beg to move.

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: Anything that I might say on Amendments Nos. 186 and 189 would simply go back to the amendment that the noble Viscount so ably moved. I am delighted to support him.

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