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Lord Rogan: My Lords, I am far from content but there will be an opportunity to test the opinion of the House on this wide-ranging debate on Amendment No. 86. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 83 to 85 not moved.]

Lord Glentoran moved Amendment No. 86:

Leave out Clause 65.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am not persuaded. I have a slightly different argument. I believe that we should maintain the status quo. It was quite unnecessary to raise this hare and the Bill would be considerably better without this clause. This would leave some courthouses in certain parts of the Province with coats of arms and other courthouses in other parts without them. As the noble Baroness said, they do not necessarily reflect the persuasions of the communities, so why do we have to interfere? The Bill will be considerably better without this clause. I wish to test the opinion of the House. I beg to move.

5.59 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 86) shall be agreed to?

4 Jul 2002 : Column 390

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 88; Not-Contents, 145.

Division No. 2

CONTENTS
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalfont, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cooke of Islandreagh, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Cox, B.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fitt, L.
Fowler, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goschen, V.
Hambro, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holderness, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Inglewood, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Laird, L.
Lucas, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moynihan, L.
Noakes, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogan, L.
Rotherwick, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Vivian, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wilcox, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Briggs, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goodhart, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Jones, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Newby, L.
Nicol, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Parekh, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sandberg, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Serota, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stern, B.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

4 Jul 2002 : Column 391

6.8 p.m.

Clause 67 [Information about discharge and temporary release of prisoners]:

Baroness Park of Monmouth moved Amendment No. 86A:

Page 59, line 9, at end insert—

"( ) A victim information scheme must also apply in respect of persons in the category of OTRs ("on the runs") who, after due process, may be released into the community."

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I hope to persuade the Government to make specific provision for the right of members of the community who have lost friends or family because of the terrorist activities of those persons known as "on the runs" to be informed in advance of those persons' impending return to the community.

4 Jul 2002 : Column 392

The Prime Minister and the Taoiseach agreed with Sinn Fein at the Weston Park talks in July to do something to enable such fugitives, who have never been brought to justice, to return to their communities. The Prime Minister has recently given assurances that there was no offer of amnesty nor was one asked for. The Prime Minister nevertheless considers himself committed to finding a solution.

The OTRs include those who have planted the Enniskillen bomb. Their identities and the crimes for which they were responsible are already well known to the community, and the fact that they have fled and never dared to return suggests at least a recognition of guilt.

Since the intention to allow them to return became known, there has been widespread grief and rage in both the Unionist and the republican communities. That grief and rage are all the greater since there are no plans for the return of the many families exiled to the mainland under threat of death if they return. They are exiles solely because they displeased the violent and armed paramilitaries who still rule the streets in Belfast, four years after the Belfast agreement. These victims dare not testify against their oppressors and the police cannot act. So the innocent must remain exiles, while the OTRs, each with a record of crime, violence and murder, are to return and be welcomed home by their paramilitary community.

That is why I have tabled this amendment. I believe that the victims of the OTRs are entitled to be consulted and warned. The Government may well say that of course the scheme will cover them. Without explicit provision on the face of the Bill of the kind that I have proposed, it will not.

First, the present scheme refers to released prisoners. We still do not know whether the OTRs are to serve any prison term. Secondly, the existing early release information scheme states that the scheme does not apply to,

"a person convicted who may not have served a prison sentence",

or,

"a prisoner who has not received a sentence of five years or more".

Finally, the scheme lays down that,

"for the protection of some of the individuals involved, specific information may not be provided".

We do not know what formula will be invoked to fulfil the commitment made by the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach that they would,

"take such steps as are necessary in their jurisdiction to resolve the difficulty so that those concerned are no longer pursued"—

although I welcome the Prime Minister's intention, as I understand it, to bring those proposals to Parliament.

The Government have argued that,

"Such people would, if convicted, stand to benefit by early release",

and,

"it would be a natural development of the scheme for such prosecutions not to be pursued".

4 Jul 2002 : Column 393

On all those counts, it seems certain that under the provisions of the present early release scheme which I have cited, and perhaps particularly under the provision for,

"the protection of the individuals involved",

the victims of the crimes of the OTRs would not be entitled at present to have advance warning of their triumphant reappearance on the streets where their victims live.

I believe that we owe it to the victims of the OTRs to ensure on the face of the Bill that their rights are expressly preserved. I have considerable faith that the noble and learned Lord will recognise the justice and the timeliness of this amendment. I beg to move.

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