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Lord Higgins: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way again. However, as this is a matter of £12 billion, I am sure that we both agree that it should not be treated too lightly. The fact that a

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change was made in that the original discredited scheme was replaced by the new scheme does not alter the issue of the burden of proof as regards those who still feel that they are entitled to compensation. If that is what the ombudsman is saying, I feel bound to comment that I believe he is mistaken.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I am not sure that we can take the matter much further. Under the new scheme we have a taper as regards the severity of the cut-off point. The problem with the original scheme was the severity of the cut-off point and the fact that people had no time to make alternative arrangements. The new scheme copes with both those aspects. There is the taper, as well as a period of up to 10 years, at the very least, during which people may make alternative arrangements.

Therefore, as I understand it, the ombudsman is now saying that he believes that the department's approach is a reasonable one; that we shall be looking on the balance of probabilities, rather than the department having to show beyond reasonable doubt that it misled someone; that the person involved suffered financial loss; and that, in those cases, we have responded according to the guidelines laid down by the Government Actuary's Department.

Clearly, as a former Treasury Minister, the noble Lord will recognise that we also have a duty of care to taxpayers whose moneys we are disbursing. The example I gave of the 24 year-old bluntly, so far as I could see, trying it on, is not one into which he could suggest we should bring our high-powered lawyers simply to say that the balance of probabilities is against him. It is not for us to say that that is fundamentally implausible. However, if the noble Lord feels that the department has been less than reasonable in its handling of any individual case, I am more than happy to look into it. That may have to be done on almost an ad hoc basis.

I do not think that I can go beyond the general guidelines I have now given, which conform to the Government's general compensation rules. However, as I say, if the noble Lord feels that the department is behaving unreasonably in any individual case, I should be happy to look into that.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Pensions Appeal Tribunals (Additional Rights of Appeal) Regulations 2001

8.40 p.m.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham rose to move, That the draft regulations laid before the House on 26th February be approved [8th Report from the Joint Committee].

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I have a long speech and a short speech. I shall read out the short speech and mention any points in the long speech if your Lordships wish. I shall speak to the two sets of regulations.

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The regulations resulted from the Act passed last summer. As your Lordships will remember, the regulations concern appeals, not claims which remain unaffected. At the moment decisions can be appealed decades after they were made. A decision can be made in the 1950s and someone may appeal against it 40 years later. I believe that your Lordships agreed that it was absurd to have such a long potential period of time between the original claim and its contest and appeal. That is clearly not sensible. In future people will have to appeal against a decision closer to the time it was made so that the circumstances can be fully considered and one is not trying to second-guess decisions that were made 20 or 30 years ago in a very different medical climate.

The extension of appeal rights is intended to provide a clearer, more cohesive and consistent approach to decision-making by giving more war pensioners the opportunity to settle their dispute in a fair, just, impartial manner. A six-month appeal time limit--claims, however, can be made at any time--will ensure that appeals are prepared and heard closer to the time the decisions are made.

The regulations that are before the House set out the finer detail of the extent of those new rights for war pensioners and the grounds under which an appeal may be heard if it is received outside the new time limits. The proposals were taken forward working with the ex-service organisations and in consultation with the president of the Pensions Appeals Tribunal. The majority of our proposals have been welcomed by the war pensions community.

The changes are, of course, being communicated appropriately and widely. For example, we have provided that those war pensioners who received appealable decisions before the new arrangements come into effect on 9th April will have a longer 12 month lead-in period in which to appeal. The War Pensions Agency intends to send notifications to a number of war disablement pensioners and war widows whose decisions were made in the recent past to inform them of the transitional arrangements.

The regulations include, first, late appeals. The draft late appeals regulations before us today provide that a tribunal may prescribe the circumstance and allow an appeal to be brought no later than 12 months after the expiry of the uniform statutory appeal time limit. We provided a generous six month appeal time limit in preference to the one month time limit which appears elsewhere in social security. We have also provided in the regulations some transitional protection to decisions made before the new time limit is commenced next month. Except for those interim decisions that are subject to a three month time limit, claimants who receive a decision before 9th April this year will have a full year from the date of the notification in which to bring an appeal.

Regulation 4 of the late appeals regulations prescribes the situations under which a late appeal may be accepted by tribunals where the claimant was not able to bring the appeal within the time limit but the appeal was none the less brought as soon as was

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reasonable and practical in the circumstances. For example, the delay could be due to death, a postal strike or exceptional circumstances. Essentially these provisions replace the previous reasonable excuse provisions.

Secondly, we come to the additional rights of appeal. These are intended to provide war pensioners with a right of appeal to the independent tribunals against the majority of war pensions decisions and includes for the first time something which has been widely welcomed; that is, most decisions on the supplementary allowances, which are the major source in some cases of the pension that is paid in addition to the basic war pension. The Government intend that they will be effective for all decisions notified on or after 9th April this year. It is intended that appeals rights will usually extend to war pensions where a decision has been made that refuses or stops an award; sets or changes the amount of an award or sets or varies the date from which the award has effect.

I believe that these regulations are balanced and generous. They have been drawn up in consultation with the organisations concerned. They have been out to extensive consultation with 17 or 18 different organisations. They do not all entirely agree on every point. However, I hope that with those assurances and given the fact that the regulations are benign in intent and are sensible and that we discussed the policy implications last summer your Lordships will feel able to accept the regulations tonight.

Moved, That the draft regulations laid before the House on 26th February be approved--[8th Report from the Joint Committee].--(Baroness Hollis of Heigham.)

Lord Higgins: My Lords, we are grateful for that explanation. I speak totally out of order but on the previous debate I believe that the noble Baroness did not respond to some points on the PAC. I hope that she will reply in writing. However, we very much welcome the regulations that we are discussing. One point arises with regard to waiting times for decisions which I believe can best be addressed as regards the following regulations on which I hope to speak briefly.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I thought that I was speaking to both sets of regulations. However, I shall move the second set of regulations formally.

Lord Higgins: My Lords, if the noble Baroness spoke to both sets of regulations I raise the question of the impact of the first set of regulations on the second set in as much as I gather that the delays at the moment are considerable although officials aim to reduce the waiting time to 14 weeks. I understand that in 1999-2000 the pensions appeal tribunals reported an average waiting time of 83.5 weeks. That seems a most extraordinary figure; it may be a misprint, in which

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case the noble Baroness will correct me. What is the current waiting time? I believe that at present it is about 50 weeks.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, the latest information I have indicates that it is about a year. We are trying to bring that down for all appeals tribunals.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Pensions Appeal Tribunals (Late Appeals) Regulations 2001

Baroness Hollis of Heigham rose to move, That the draft regulations laid before the House on 26th February be approved [8th Report from the Joint Committee].

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft regulations laid before the House on 26th February be approved--[8th Report from the Joint Committee].--(Baroness Hollis of Heigham.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

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