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Lord Parekh: My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister whether the Government, when considering proposals for reform of your Lordships' House, will take into account not only its composition but the right of its Members to vote in parliamentary elections?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the noble Lord is a distinguished political theoretician. I am very interested in his views. No doubt they are shared elsewhere. This is all part of a longer and wider debate.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, does the Minister agree that it would be a very strange reading of the Human Rights Act or the European Convention on Human Rights if Members of this House, who have voluntarily chosen to be here--unlike, for example, the guests of Her Majesty's Prison Service--were suddenly to get an enforceable right to vote for
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, will my noble friend consider this proposition: that there should be no taxation without representation? As this House has no control over taxation, should we not be represented in the House that does?
Lord Waddington: My Lords, surely the Minister is right. There is no case for our having someone to represent us in Parliament when we have the privilege of being able to represent ourselves. Would there not be strength in the argument advanced by the noble Lord only if we were to lose our right to influence the legislative process? Can we be assured by the Government that there are no plans to alter our existing right to play a part in the legislative process?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I am more than happy to give that assurance. The noble Lord will recall that when certain hereditaries lost their right to be Members of this legislature, they gained the right to vote in a general election.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the issue it not so much influence on the details of the legislative programme as influence on which government is elected? Surely that is a right that we ought to be entitled to exercise.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, does the Minister agree that to say that a question is part of another, wider debate is the kind of all-purpose answer which does not fit any bill at all. I hope that the Minister--to whom I wish to be nothing but fair--will refrain from following his own lamentable example.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): My Lords, we have asked the Germans for a full account of the reasons for Mr Odetayo's detention. We are awaiting a substantive written report from them. We have ascertained that Mr Odetayo's detention from 9th February to early March was because of an alleged physical assault by Mr Odetayo on a German police officer. We have requested authority from the State Attorney's Office for the release of the papers. We hope to have the final report soon.
Baroness Whitaker: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. There are obviously significant questions for the German authorities to answer. They are, after all, like us, signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights. However, it is important to know more about the conduct of our own consular officials. Did they visit Mr Odetayo during his weeks in prison? Did they clarify his status with the German police or find out whether the German authorities had charged him?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, initially, Mr Odetayo was not visited. He was not offered consular assistance while in detention as consular officials understood him to have been unlawfully in possession of a British passport and not to be a British citizen. When he came to the Consulate General in Frankfurt on 4th March 1999, he was able to satisfy the consular official of his eligibility to hold a British passport and was issued with a new passport without delay.
Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, are consular officials advised that they should consider people to be British citizens if they claim to be so unless there is evidence to the contrary, granted that something like a majority of black British people are now full British citizens?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I can reassure the noble Baroness in relation to that matter. This may not be the appropriate moment to go through the details, but there were particular difficulties in this case. Mr Odetayo had been issued with two passports: one had been lost and then stolen; the second was valid. It seems that there may have been confusion in relation to which passport was claimed. We are trying as hard as we can to obtain clarification
Lord Archer of Sandwell: My Lords, did the problem arise in any way from a confusion over citizenship law? Will the Minister give an indication as to what training consular officials receive in citizenship law?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, nothing appears on the face of the papers I have received to date to indicate that this was the result of confusion in relation to citizenship law. The confusion seems to have related to whether Mr Odetayo held a valid British passport. Training is certainly given to our consular officials in relation to the exercise of their duties. UK-based staff are given specific training in good race relations and in how to deal properly with such matters.
Lord Rotherwick: My Lords, perhaps I may clarify a point. The Minister said that the first passport was lost and stolen. If I understand her correctly, the second was presumably the one that was replaced by the final third version. Was the second passport incorrectly issued? Otherwise, why did it have to be replaced with a third?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the second passport was properly issued. As I have said, we are trying to clarify the facts with the German authorities. It is not clear whether the second passport was lost, stolen or retained. We are trying to make sure that a clear exposition of the facts is obtained. I am not in a position to help the House further at this point. We are obviously concerned that any confusion at all has occurred. We are trying to clarify matters so that it does not happen again and so that the German authorities are clear, as our authorities are, in regard to the proper process to be followed if anything of this sort happens again.
Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, can my noble friend help me a little further? If the second passport was properly issued, why did it take a consular official a month to labour under the misapprehension that the person was not a British citizen? Although there may be no need for training in law, as my noble friend assured the noble and learned Lord, Lord Archer of Sandwell, has my noble friend identified the other area of training that the consular official in this case might have needed?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I apologise in advance for the fact that this is a somewhat complicated tale. If it will assist the House, I shall explain a little further. Passport number one, if I may so describe it, was submitted to consular officials because it had been damaged. It was subsequently lost and stolen. Passport number two, with a different
Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, can the Minister help the House a little further? If a passport is lost or damaged, is it not automatically cancelled?
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