House of Lords Journal 233 (Session 1999-00)


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Monday 30 October 2000

The House met at half-past two o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Biffen, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.

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Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Blease, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carter, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cockfield, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Ferrers, E.
Filkin, L.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gale, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gavron, L.
Geddes, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Haskel, L.
Haslam, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holderness, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooper, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Islwyn, L.
Jacobs, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jopling, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lipsey, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Longford, E.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McNally, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Molloy, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
O’Cathain, B.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Oxford, Bp.
Patten, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Porter of Luddenham, L.
Prior, L.
Puttnam, L.
Quirk, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Roper, L.

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Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Ryder of Warsaw, B.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Sandberg, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Sewel, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stallard, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tanlaw, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trumpington, B.
Turnberg, L.
Uddin, B.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young, B.
Young of Old Scone, B.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Oxford.

Judicial Business

1.Regina v. Allen (Appellant) (On Appeal from the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division))—The appeal of Brian Roger Allen was presented and ordered to be prosecuted subject to the procedures applicable thereto.

Papers

2.Command Paper—The following paper was presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table:

Health—Government Response to the 2nd Report of the House of Commons Health Committee on the Tobacco Industry and the Health Risks of Smoking.

(4905)

3.Affirmative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House for approval by resolution and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Draft EUTELSAT (Immunities and Privileges) (Amendment) Order 2000;
2.Draft Social Security (New Deal Pilot) Regulations 2000;
3.Farm Waste Grant (Nitrate Vulnerable Zones) (England) (No. 2) Scheme 2000.
 (2911)
4.Negative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Child Benefit (General) Amendment Regulations 2000, laid under the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992;
 (2891)
2.Recreation Grounds (Revocation of Parish Council Byelaws) Order 2000, laid under the Local Government Act 1972;
 (2884)
3.Animals and Animal Products (Import and Export) (England and Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2000, laid under the European Communities Act 1972.
 (2900)
5.Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Report and Accounts for 1999–2000 of the Parole Board, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Criminal Justice Act 1991;
2.Report and Accounts for 1999–2000 of National Savings, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act 1921;
3.Report and Accounts for 1999–2000 of the British Railways Board, laid under the Railways Act 1974;
4.Review for 2000 of the Arts Council for England, together with the Report and Accounts for 1999–2000 of the National Lottery, laid under the National Lottery etc. Act 1993.

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Select Committee Report

6.Delegated Powers and Deregulation—The 31st Report from the Select Committee was made on the following bill:
 Countryside and Rights of Way Bill—Further Government Response to the Committee’s 24th Report;

it was ordered that the Report be printed. (HL Paper 111)

Public Business

7.Transport Bill—The bill was further considered on report; amendments were moved and (by leave of the House) withdrawn; an amendment was disagreed to (see division list 1); amendments were agreed to; further consideration on report was adjourned.
8.Queen’s Speech—The Lord Waddington asked Her Majesty’s Government whether they will ensure that in future the Queen’s Speech at the Opening of Parliament is of reasonable length, and, while containing details of the Government’s legislative programme, omits an account of past events; after debate, the question was answered by the Lord Carter.

The House was adjourned during pleasure.
The House was resumed.

9.Transport Bill—The bill was further considered on report; amendments were moved and (by leave of the House) withdrawn; amendments were agreed to; an amendment was disagreed to (see division list 2); further consideration on report was adjourned after amendment 294.

The House was adjourned at twenty-eight minutes past ten o’clock
till tomorrow, half-past two o’clock.


DIVISIONS

Division No. 1

TRANSPORT BILL

It was moved by the Lord Dixon-Smith, in Clause 136, page 83, line 26, to leave out from (“scheme”) to end of line 27; which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the House divided:

Contents.............57

Not-Contents.............101

CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brightman, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L. [Teller]
Buscombe, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cuckney, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Glentoran, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Hanham, B.
Haslam, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L. [Teller]
Hooper, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rees, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Sharples, B.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Warnock, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brett, L.
Brookman, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]

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Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Hamwee, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Jacobs, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
(Lord Privy Seal)
Layard, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McNally, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Newby, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Peston, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turnberg, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Division No. 2

TRANSPORT BILL

It was moved by the Earl Attlee, in Clause 224, page 138, line 22, at end to insert (“; and

(d) the desirability of providing a financial incentive for relevant operators to run or allow the running of more trains and for a fair division of responsibility for train delays,

but no policies will be adopted that will have the effect of imposing the disproportionate penalties or materially altering the parameters within which an existing franchise was granted”); which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the House divided:

Contents.............21

Not-Contents.............49

CONTENTS

Attlee, E.
Blatch, B.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Byford, B.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Freeman, L.
Geddes, L.
Hanham, B. [Teller]
Henley, L. [Teller]
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Luke,L.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Vivian, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Hamwee, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.

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Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitty, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.