House of Lords Journal 233 (Session 1999-00)


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Thursday 29 June 2000

The House met at three o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Arran, E.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Biffen, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blatch, B.
Blease, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Blood, B.
Boardman, L.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Burns, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carter, L.
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cockfield, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cooke of Thorndon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.

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Crathorne, L.
Crawley, B.
Crickhowell, L.
Croham, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dearing, L.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Diamond, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Durham, Bp.
Eames, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elder, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gale, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goschen, V.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Grenfell, L.
Habgood, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holderness, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Tanworth, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hylton, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Islwyn, L.
Jacobs, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jauncey of Tullichettle, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Joffe, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Laming, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lindsay, E.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Longford, E.
Lucas, L.
Ludford, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
Macfarlane of Bearsden, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molloy, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicol, B.
Nolan, L.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O’Cathain, B.
Orme, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Quirk, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.

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Renton, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodger of Earlsferry, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Rosslyn, E.
Russell, E.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Seccombe, B.
Serota, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Southwark, Bp.
Stern, B.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tanlaw, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Waverley, V.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Windlesham, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young, B.
Young of Old Scone, B.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Southwark.

Judicial Business

1.Regina v. Leeds Crown Court (Respondents) ex parte Wardle (A.P.) (Appellant) (On Appeal from a Divisional Court of the Queens Bench Division)—The appeal of Michael John Wardle was presented and ordered to be prosecuted subject to the procedures applicable thereto.
2.Appeal Committee—The following Order was made pursuant to the 51st Report:

McGrath (Respondent) v. Chief Constable of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and another (Petitioners) (Northern Ireland)—That leave to appeal be given, and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 13th July next.

3.Appeal Committee—The 55th Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Order was made—

UCB Home Loans Corporation Limited (Respondents) v. Moore and another (A.P.) (Appellant)—

Barclays Bank plc (Respondents) v. Harris and another (A.P.) (Appellant)—

National Westminster Bank plc (Respondents) v. Gill and Gill (A.P.) (Appellant)—

Midland Bank plc (Respondents) v. Wallace and another (A.P.) (Appellant)—

Royal Bank of Scotland (Respondents) v. Etridge (A.P.) (Appellant)—

Loftus and others (Respondents) v. Etridge (A.P.) (Appellant) and another—

(Conjoined Appeals)—

That the petition of the Law Society that they might be heard or otherwise intervene in the said appeal be allowed to the extent that they may have leave to lodge written argument only.

4.Appeal Committee—The 56th Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Orders were made—

Pegasus Birds Limited (Petitioners) v. Commissioners of Customs and Excise (Respondents)—That leave to appeal be refused; that the respondents be at liberty to apply for their costs in accordance with direction 5.1(d) and, if the application is granted, that the amount thereof be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties.

Smith (administrator of Cosslett (Contractors) Limited) (Petitioner) v. Bridgend County Borough Council (Respondents)—That the respondents be invited to lodge objections by 13th July next.

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Palacegate Properties Limited (Petitioners) v. Receiver for the Metropolitan Police District (Respondent)—That leave to appeal be refused.

Baker (Petitioner) v. London Borough of Waltham Forest and others (Respondents)—That leave to appeal be refused; that the respondents be at liberty to apply for their costs in accordance with direction 5.1(d) and, if the application is granted, that the amount thereof be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties.

Victor Chandler International (Petitioners) v. Commissioners of Customs and Excise (Respondents) and others—That leave to appeal be refused.

Storer (Respondent) v. BG plc (formerly British Gas plc) (Petitioners)—That leave to appeal be refused; that the respondent be at liberty to apply for his costs in accordance with direction 5.1(d) and, if the application is granted, that the amount thereof be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties.

Regan (Petitioner) v. Taylor (Respondent)—That leave to appeal be refused.

Papers

5.Command Papers—The following papers were presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Civil Service—Civil Service Additional Voluntary Contribution Scheme (Amendment) Scheme 2000;
 (—)
2.Children in Care—Learning the Lessons, Government Response to the Report of the Tribunal of Inquiry into the abuse of children in care in the former County Council areas of Gwynedd and Clwyd since 1974;
 (4776)
3.Health—Report by the Secretary of State for Health on the public consultation on proposals to amend the Medical Act 1983.
 (—)
6.Affirmative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House for approval by resolution and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Draft National Assembly of Wales (Transfer of Functions) (Variation) Order 2000;
2.Draft National Assembly of Wales (Transfer of Functions) (No. 2) Order 2000;
3.Draft Medical Act 1983 (Amendment) Order 2000.
7.Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Financial Statements of the Duchy of Cornwall for 1999–2000, laid under the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall (Accounts) Act 1838;
2.Report for 1999 of the Director General of Fair Trading, laid under the Fair Trading Act 1973;
3.Report and Accounts for 1999–2000 of the Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Government Trading Funds Act 1973;
4.Chief Executive’s Statement and Accounts for 1998–99 of the Fisheries Research Services, laid under the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act 1921.

Public Business

8.Transport Bill—It was moved by the Lord Carter, on behalf of the Lord Macdonald of Tradeston, that it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to whom the Transport Bill has been recommitted that they consider the bill in the following order:

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Clauses 1 to 30
Schedules 1 and 2
Clauses 31 to 33
Schedule 3
Clauses 34 to 36
Schedule 4
Clause 37
Schedule 5
Clauses 38 to 63
Schedule 6
Clause 64
Schedule 7
Clauses 65 to 96
Schedule 8
Clauses 97 to 101
Schedule 9
Clauses 102 to 152
Schedule 10
Clauses 153 to 160
Schedule 11
Clauses 161 to 190
Schedule 12
Clauses 191 to 198
Schedule 13
Clauses 199 to 203
Schedule 14
Clauses 204 to 210
Schedule 15
Clauses 211 to 214
Schedule 16
Clause 215
Schedule 17
Clause 216
Schedule 18
Clause 217
Schedule 19
Clause 218
Schedule 20
Clause 219
Schedule 21
Clauses 220 to 226
Schedule 22
Clauses 227 and 228
Schedule 23
Clauses 229 and 230
Schedule 24
Clauses 231 to 238
Schedule 25
Clauses 239 to 248
Schedule 26
Clauses 249 and 250
Schedule 27
Clause 251
Schedule 28
Clauses 252 to 254
Schedule 29
Clauses 255 to 259
Schedule 30
Clauses 260 to 265;

the motion was agreed to.

9.Utilities Bill—It was moved by the Lord McIntosh of Haringey that the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order:
Clause 1
Schedule 1
Clause 2
Schedule 2
Clause 3
Schedule 3
Clauses 4 to 51
Schedule 4
Clause 52
Schedule 5
Clauses 53 to 107
Schedules 6 to 8
Clauses 108 and 109;

the motion was agreed to.

10.Trustee Bill [HL]—The Queen’s and Prince of Wales’ consents were signified; the bill was read a third time; amendments were agreed to; then the bill was passed and sent to the Commons.
11.Postal Services Bill—The bill was considered on report; amendments were moved and (by leave of the House) withdrawn; amendments were agreed to; an amendment was disagreed to (see division list); it was ordered that the bill be printed as amended. (HL Bill 94)
12.Fur Farming (Prohibition) Bill—A bill to prohibit the keeping of animals solely or primarily for slaughter for the value of their fur; to provide for the making of payments in respect of the related closure of certain businesses; and for connected purposes was brought from the Commons, read a first time and ordered to be printed. (HL Bill 95)
13.Fur Farming (Prohibition) Bill—It was ordered that the Explanatory Notes relating to the bill be printed. (HL Bill 95–EN)
14.Learning and Skills Bill [HL] —The bill was returned from the Commons agreed to with amendments and with a privilege amendment; it was ordered that the Commons amendments be printed. (HL Bill 97)
15.Limited Liability Partnerships Bill [HL] —The bill was returned from the Commons agreed to with amendments and with a privilege amendment; it was ordered that the Commons amendments be printed. (HL Bill 96)
16.Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedule 4) Order 2000—It was moved by the Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale that the draft Order laid before the House on 25th May be approved; after debate, the motion was agreed to.
17.Northern Ireland Act 2000 (Restoration of Devolved Government) Order 2000—It was moved by the Lord Falconer of Thoroton that the draft Order laid before the House on 5th June be approved; after debate, the motion was agreed to.

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18.Northern Ireland Act 2000 (Modification) Order 2000—It was moved by the Lord Falconer of Thoroton that the draft Order laid before the House on 5th June be approved; the motion was agreed to.
19.Northern Ireland Act 1998 (Designation of Public Authorities) Order 2000—It was moved by the Lord Falconer of Thoroton that the draft Order laid before the House on 8th June be approved; after debate, the motion was agreed to.

The House was adjourned at nineteen minutes past eight o’clock
till tomorrow, eleven o’clock.


DIVISION

POSTAL SERVICES BILL

It was moved by the Baroness Miller of Hendon, in Clause 5, page 3, line 37, at end to insert:

(“( ) The Commission shall exercise its functions in the manner which it considers best calculated to ensure the maintenance of a network of rural post offices at a level comparable with that which existed on the day on which this Act was passed.

( ) In this section, a rural post office means a post office serving a community of 10,000 people or less.”);

which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the House divided:

Contents.............104

Not-Contents.............116

CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Arran, E.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elton, L.
Falkland, V.
Ferrers, E.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L. [Teller]
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holderness, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Moynihan, L.
Newby, L.
Northbrook, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O’Cathain, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E. [Teller]
Seccombe, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stewartby, L.
Swinfen, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Young, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.

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Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Diamond, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fitt, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harrison, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
(Lord Privy Seal)
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Longford, E.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Marsh, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molloy, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rogan, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Serota, B.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.