House of Lords Journal 233 (Session 1999-00)


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Thursday 15 June 2000

The House met at two o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Arran, E.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Birmingham, Bp.
Birt, L.
Blatch, B.
Blease, L.
Blood, B.
Boardman, L.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Burns, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carter, L.
Carver, L.
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chalfont, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cockfield, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Coe, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colwyn, L.
Cooke of Thorndon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Cranborne, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crawley, B.
Crickhowell, L.
Croham, L.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dearing, L.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elder, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.

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Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Ferrers, E.
Filkin, L.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gale, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Gavron, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hanningfield, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Healey, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hylton, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Islwyn, L.
Jacobs, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Joffe, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
Macfarlane of Bearsden, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molloy, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Norfolk, D.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O’Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Patten, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Peston, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Porter of Luddenham, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quirk, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Serota, B.
Sharman, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stevenson of Coddenham, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tanlaw, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.

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Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Vivian, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Waverley, V.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Windlesham, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young, B.
Young of Old Scone, B.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Birmingham.

Judicial Business

1.Goodes (A.P.) (Respondent) v. East Sussex County Council (Appellants)—The Report from the Appellate Committee was agreed to; it was ordered and adjudged that the Order of the Court of Appeal of 21st December 1998 be set aside and that the Order of Judge Hargrove QC of 28th January 1998 be restored; that the costs of the appellants in the Court of Appeal and before this House be paid out of the Legal Aid Fund in accordance with Section 18 of the Legal Aid Act 1988, such order to be suspended for four weeks to allow the Legal Aid Board to object if they wish; and that the costs of the respondent in this House be taxed in accordance with the Legal Aid Act 1988.
2.In re Burke (A.P.) (Appellant) (On Appeal from a Divisional Court of the Queen’s Bench Division)—The Report from the Appellate Committee was agreed to; it was ordered and adjudged that the Order of the Divisional Court of the Queen’s Bench Division of 16th March 1999 be affirmed and the appeal dismissed; and that there be no order as to costs save that the costs of the appellant in this House be taxed in accordance with the Legal Aid Act 1988.
3.Cocker (Petitioner) v. Tofield Swann and Smythe (Respondents)—The petition of Christine Cocker praying for leave to appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee (lodged 7th June).
4.Chelsea Yacht and Boat Company Limited (Respondents) v. Pope (FC) (Petitioner)—The petition of Justin Pope praying for leave to appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee. The petitioner’s certificate of public funding was lodged.
5.Appeal Committee—The 52nd Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Order was made—

In re Williamson (Petitioner) (Northern Ireland)—That leave to appeal be refused.

6.Appeal Committee—The 53rd Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Orders were made—

In re Oshin (Petitioner) (application for a writ of habeas Corpus)—That leave to appeal be refused.

Regina v. Manchester Crown Court ex parte D (Respondent)—That the respondent be invited to lodge objections by 29th June next.

Regina v. Manchester Crown Court ex parte H (Respondent)—That the respondent be invited to lodge objections by 29th June next.

McDade (Petitioner) v. Masons (a firm) (Respondents)—That the petition be dismissed as inadmissible.

Regina v. Martin (Petitioner) (2000)—That leave to appeal be refused.

Regina v. Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Respondents) ex parte Astonquest Limited (Petitioners)—That the respondents be invited to lodge objections by 29th June next.

Regina v. Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions and another (Petitioners) ex parte Spath Holme Limited (Respondents)—That the respondents be invited to lodge objections by 29th June next.

Regina v. Sawoniuk (Petitioner)—That leave to appeal be refused.

The House was adjourned during pleasure.
The House was resumed.

7.Leave of Absence—Leave of absence was granted to the Lord Chancellor for tomorrow.

Papers

8.Instrument withdrawn—The following instrument, laid before the House on 14th June, was withdrawn:

Draft Attorney General’s Salary Order 2000.

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9.Command Papers—The following papers were presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Commercial Debts—Exchange of Notes between the United Kingdom and Pakistan concerning certain Commercial Debts;
 (4729)
2.Transport—Agreement between the United Kingdom and Hungary on International Road Transport;
 (4731)
3.Pollution—22nd Report from the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution on “Energy—the Changing Climate”.
 (4749)
10.Affirmative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House for approval by resolution and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Draft Pollution Prevention and Control (England and Wales) Regulations 2000;
2.Draft Attorney General’s Salary Order 2000.
11.Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1. (i)Eritrea and Ethiopia (United Nations Sanctions) (Channel Islands) Order 2000—(1559)
(ii)Eritrea and Ethiopia (United Nations Sanctions) (Isle of Man) Order 2000—(1558)
(iii)Eritrea and Ethiopia (United Nations Sanctions) (Overseas Territories) Order 2000—(1557)
(iv)Eritrea and Ethiopia (United Nations Sanctions) Order 2000—(1556)
 laid under the United Nations Act 1946;
2.Accounts for 1999–2000 of the Broadcasting Standards Commission, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Broadcasting Act 1996;
3.Report for 1998–99 of the Office of the Subsidence Adviser, laid under the Coal Industry Act 1994;
4.Report for 1999 of the Insolvency Service, laid under the Insolvency Act 1986.

Public Business

12.European Parliamentary Elections Bill [HL]—It was moved by the Lord Chancellor that the bill be now read a second time; after debate, the motion was agreed to and the bill was referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.
13.Postal Services Bill—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; the debate on amendment 69 was resumed; after further debate, the amendment was (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; an amendment was disagreed to (see division list); amendments were agreed to; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; the House was resumed and the bill was reported with amendments; it was ordered that the bill be printed as amended. (HL Bill 84)

The House was adjourned during pleasure.
The House was resumed.

14.Insolvency Bill [HL]—The bill was reported from a Grand Committee with amendments (see appendix); it was ordered that the bill be printed as amended. (HL Bill 85)
15.Television Licences (Disclosure of Information) Bill—It was moved by the Lord McIntosh of Haringey that the bill be now read a second time; after debate, the motion was agreed to and the bill was committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
16.Wireless Telegraphy (Television Licence Fees) Bill [HL]—It was moved by the Baroness Anelay of St Johns that the bill be now read a second time; the motion was agreed to and the bill was committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

The House was adjourned at twenty-five minutes before nine o’clock
till tomorrow, eleven o’clock.

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DIVISION

POSTAL SERVICES BILL

It was moved by the Baroness Miller of Hendon, in Clause 68, page 42, line 32, after (“rates”) insert (“(being not less than the commercial rates generally payable in the financial markets at the time of making the loans)”); which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the Committee divided:

Contents.............85

Not-Contents.............139

CONTENTS

Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Blatch, B.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bridges, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L. [Teller]
Buscombe, B.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Coe, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Cranborne, V.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dearing, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elles, B.
Elton, L.
Fookes, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goschen, V.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L. [Teller]
Higgins, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McConnell, L.
Macfarlane of Bearsden, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O’Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Vivian, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wilcox, B.
Windlesham, L.
Young, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Borrie, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hayman, B.
Healey, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.

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Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)
Jay of Paddington, B.
(Lord Privy Seal)
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Laird, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McNally, L.
Marsh, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Newby, L.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Peston, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B. [Teller]
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Serota, B.
Sharman, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.


APPENDIX

PROCEEDINGS OF THE GRAND COMMITTEE (IN THE MOSES ROOM)

The Committe met at four o’clock.

Insolvency Bill [HL]—The bill was considered in a Grand Committee; amendments were agreed to; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; it was ordered that the bill be reported with amendments.

The Committee was adjourned at twenty-four minutes past seven o’clock