House of Lords Journal 233 (Session 1999-00)


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Thursday 30 March 2000

The House met at two o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Bagri, L.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Birt, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blatch, B.
Blease, L.
Blood, B.
Boardman, L.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradford, Bp.
Bradshaw, L.
Bramall, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Brigstocke, B.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Browne-Wilkinson, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Burns, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carnarvon, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carter, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Christopher , L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Clyde, L.
Cockfield, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cowdrey of Tonbridge, L.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Cranborne, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crawley, B.
Crickhowell, L.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Eatwell, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elder, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.

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Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gale, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gavron, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greenway, L.
Hambro, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hobhouse of Woodborough, L.
Holderness, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Howe, E.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hutton, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Islwyn, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Joffe, L.
Jopling, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Longford, E.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
Macfarlane of Bearsden, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McNally, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Millett, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicholls of Birkenhead, L.
Nicol, B.
Nolan, L.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O’Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oxfuird, V.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Patten, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peston, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prashar, B.
Prior, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Quirk, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Reay, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Richard, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Rix, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Rosslyn, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Runcie, L.
Russell, E.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Seccombe, B.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Sharman, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stallard, L.
Stern, B.
Stewartby, L.
Steyn, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.

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Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thornton, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakefield, Bp.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Waverley, V.
Weatherill, L.
Wharton, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young, B.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Bradford.

Judicial Business

1.Regina v. Secretary of State for the Home Department (Respondent) ex parte Hindley (A.P.) (Appellant)—The Report from the Appellate Committee was agreed to; it was ordered and adjudged that the Order of the Court of Appeal of 5th November 1998 be affirmed and the appeal dismissed; and that there be no order as to costs save that the costs of the appellant in this House be taxed in accordance with the Legal Aid Act 1988.
2.Hurst (Appellant) v. Bryk and others (Respondents)—The Report from the Appellate Committee was agreed to; it was ordered and adjudged that the Order of the Court of Appeal of 4th February 1997 be affirmed and the appeal dismissed with costs, the amount thereof to be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties.
3.Regina v. Antoine (Appellant) (On Appeal from the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division))—The Report from the Appellate Committee was agreed to; it was ordered and adjudged that the Order of the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division) of 29th April 1999 be affirmed and the appeal dismissed; and that the certified question be answered in the negative.
4.Appeal Committee—It was moved by the Lord Browne-Wilkinson that the 37th Report from the Appeal Committee (HL Paper 49) be agreed to; the motion was agreed to. It was ordered that the Order made pursuant to the 8th Report (Session 1998-99) of the Appeal Committee on 14 December 1998, relating to the petition for leave to appeal in the cause Lubbe and others (Respondents) v. Cape Industries plc (Petitioners), be vacated; that leave to appeal be given; and that the petition of appeal be lodged forthwith.
5.Appeal Committee—It was moved by the Lord Steyn that the 30th Report from the Appeal Committee (HL Paper 40) be agreed to; the motion was agreed to. It was ordered that the Order made pursuant to the 8th Report of the Appeal Committee on 7th December last, relating to the petition of Anthony Richard Clarke praying for an extension of time within which the petition may be lodged and for leave to appeal in accordance with the Administration of Justice Act 1960 in the cause Birmingham City Council (Respondents) v. Clarke (A.P.) (Petitioner), be vacated and that the petition be dismissed as inadmissible; that the presentation of the petition of appeal on 10th January last be vacated; that the costs of the respondents be paid out of Central Funds in accordance with section 16 of the Prosecution of Offences Act 1985; and that the costs of the petitioner be taxed in accordance with the Legal Aid Act 1988.
6.Amoco (U.K.) Exploration Company (a company incorporated in Delaware, USA) and others (Appellants) v. Teesside Gas Transportation Limited (Respondents)—
7.Amoco (U.K.) Exploration Company (a company incorporated in Delaware, USA) and others (Appellants) v. Imperial Chemical Industries plc and others (Respondents)—

The petition of the appellants praying that the appeals be consolidated, that they be allowed to lodge one statement, one case and one appendix and be jointly represented in respect of the appeals and that the respondents have leave to lodge one case in respect of the appeals (the agents for the respondents consenting thereto) was presented; and it was ordered as prayed.

8.Amoco (U.K.) Exploration Company (a company incorporated in Delaware, USA) and others (Appellants) v. Teesside Gas Transportation Limited (Respondents)—
9.Amoco (U.K.) Exploration Company (a company incorporated in Delaware, USA) and others (Appellants) v. Imperial Chemical Industries plc and others (Respondents)—

(Consolidated Appeals)

The petition of the appellants praying that the time for lodging the statement and appendix and setting down the cause for hearing might be extended to 11th May next (the agents for the respondents consenting thereto) was presented; and it was ordered as prayed.

10.Appeal Committee—The 38th Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Order was made—

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Horvath (A.P.) (Appellant) v. Secretary of State for the Home Department (Respondent)—That the petition of the Refugee Legal Centre that they might be heard or otherwise intervene in the said appeal be refused but that they may have leave to lodge written submissions.

The House was adjourned during pleasure.
The House was resumed.

Papers

11.Command Paper—The following paper was presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table:

Contingent Liability—Minute from the Department of Health regarding the indemnity for members of the independent inquiry into issues arising from the case of Rodney Ledward.

(—)

12.Affirmative Instrument—The following instrument was laid before the House for approval by resolution and ordered to lie on the Table:

Draft Immigration (Leave to Enter and Remain) Order 2000.

13.Negative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Structural Funds (National Assembly for Wales) Regulations 2000, laid under the European Communities Act 1972;
 (906)
2.Police Pensions (Amendment) Regulations 2000, laid under the Police Pensions Act 1976;
 (843)
3.Local Government (Best Value) Performance Indicators Order 2000, laid under the Local Government Act 1999;
 (896)
4.National Health Service (Charges to Overseas Visitors) Amendment (No. 2) Regulations 2000, laid under the National Health Service Act 1977;
 (909)
5.Teachers’ Pensions (Contributable Salary) Regulations 2000, laid under the Superannuation Act 1972.
 (907)
14.Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Report and Accounts for 1998–99 of the Countryside Commission, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981;
2.Accounts for 1998–99 of the:
(i)Kitts Green and Shard End Education Action Zone—
(ii)Blackburn with Darwen Education Action Zone—
(iii)Aston and Nachells Education Action Zone—
(iv)East Basildon Education Action Zone—
 together with the Reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the School Standards and Framework Act 1998;
3.Report of the Government Actuary on the Teachers’ Pension Scheme for England and Wales, laid under the Teachers’ Pensions Regulations 1997;
4.Supplementary report by the Government Actuary on the Teachers’ Pensions (Employers’ Supplementary Contributions) Regulations 2000 (S.I. 2000/502), laid under those Regulations;
5.Local Enforcing Authorities Air Pollution Fees and Charges Scheme (England) 2000, laid under the Environmental Protection Act 1990;
6.Return for 1999 of Expenditure Incurred and Prosecutions taken under the Animal Health Act 1981, and Incidences of Disease in Imported Animals, laid under the Animal Health Act 1981;
7.Statement of Guarantee by the Treasury on loans proposed to be raised by the Civil Aviation Authority, laid under the Civil Aviation Act 1982.

Public Business

15.Business of the House—It was moved by the Lord Carter, on behalf of the Baroness Jay of Paddington, that Standing Order 40 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with this day to allow the motions standing in the name of the Lord Bach to be taken last; after debate, the motion was agreed to.

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16.Financial Services and Markets Bill—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; the questions that certain clauses stand part of the bill were negatived; amendments were agreed to; an amendment was disagreed to (see division list 1); the House was resumed.
17.Blood products: effects of contamination—The Lord Morris of Manchester asked Her Majesty’s Government what further help they are considering for people who were infected with hepatitis ‘C’ by contaminated NHS blood products and the dependants of those who have since died in consequence of their infection; after debate, the question was answered by the Lord Hunt of Kings Heath.

The House was adjourned during pleasure.
The House was resumed.

18.Financial Services and Markets Bill—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were agreed to; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; an amendment was disagreed to (see division list 2); the question that a clause stand part of the bill was negatived; the House was resumed and the bill was reported with amendments; it was ordered that the bill be printed as amended. (HL Bill 53)
19.Education (Student Loans) (Repayment) Regulations 2000—It was moved by the Lord Bach that the draft Regulations laid before the House on 17th February be approved; after debate, the motion was agreed to.
20.Foundation Subject (Amendment) (England) Order 2000—It was moved by the Lord Bach that the draft Order laid before the House on 24th January be approved; the motion was agreed to.

The House was adjourned at one o’clock
in the morning of Friday 31st March
to Monday next, half-past two o’clock.


DIVISIONS

Division No. 1

FINANCIAL SERVICES AND MARKETS BILL

It was moved by the Lord Kingsland, in Clause 293, page 151, line 43, to leave out subsection (2) and insert:

(“( ) The arrangements made by the Authority must provide for the investigator to report to the Authority on the result of his investigation and, if he considers a complaint to be well-founded, to make recommendations to the Authority on the steps (if any) which the recognised body should take to remedy the matter complained of.

( ) If the investigator reports to the Authority that a complaint is well-founded, the Authority may direct the recognised body to take specified steps in response to the investigator’s report.

( ) Specified steps may include the payment by the recognised body of a specified sum or specified sums to a specified person or specified persons.

( ) “Independent” means appearing to the Authority to be independent of the recognised body.

( ) “Specified” means specified by the Authority.”);

which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the Committee divided:

Contents.............30

Not-Contents.............73

CONTENTS

Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Attlee, E.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Byford, B.
Colwyn, L.
Courtown, E. [Teller]
Cox, B.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elton, L.
Flather, B.
Glentoran, L.
Home, E.
Howe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kingsland, L.
Lyell, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Northbrook, L. [Teller]
Northesk, E.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Renton, L.
Saatchi, L.
Skelmersdale, L.

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NOT-CONTENTS

Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Borrie, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Burns, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Gale, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
(Lord Privy Seal)
Jeger, B.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Pitkeathley, B.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rogan, L.
Sawyer, L.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Division No. 2

FINANCIAL SERVICES AND MARKETS BILL

It was moved by the Lord Saatchi, in Clause 337, page 176, line 8, at end to insert:

(“( ) approved persons within the meaning of section 63(13);”);

which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the Committee divided:

Contents.............24

Not-Contents.............57

CONTENTS

Alexander of Weedon, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Byford, B.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elton, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Glentoran, L.
Home, E.
Howe, E.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kingsland, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lyell, L.
Northbrook, L. [Teller]
Northesk, E. [Teller]
Saatchi, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Sharman, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Taverne, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Borrie, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Gale, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Howells of St Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)
Jay of Paddington, B.
(Lord Privy Seal)
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Sawyer, L.

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Simon, V.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitty, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.