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Division No. 3


Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cranborne, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L. [Teller]
Hambro, L.
Hanham, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Higgins, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Imbert, L.
Kingsland, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L. [Teller]
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wilcox, B.


Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Attenborough, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Greaves, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Haskins, L.
Hattersley, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooson, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mitchell, L.
Molloy, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Newby, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Nicol, B.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Parekh, L.
Peston, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shepherd, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Dartington, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

23 Nov 2000 : Column 996

6.50 p.m.

[Amendments Nos. 9 and 10 not moved.]

Clause 18 [Wardens]:

Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 11:

    Page 12, line 5, leave out subsection (1) and insert--

("(1) Every access authority or district council shall take such steps (whether by the appointment of wardens or otherwise) as appear to it to be necessary or expedient to achieve the purpose set out in subsection (3) as respects access land in their area.").

23 Nov 2000 : Column 997

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment No. 13 which is grouped with Amendment No. 11 after the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, has spoken to Amendment No. 13.

In our earlier debates the matter of wardens was raised on many occasions. The Liberal Democrat Benches have suggested that the term "warden" is not appropriate. I know that at this stage of the Bill we cannot change that term unless the Government decide to substitute "ranger" for the term "warden" when the Bill returns to the other place. I suspect that they might gain support for that from all parties.

We believe that the successful implementation of the Bill depends on the ability of local authorities to put in place wardens. They could be part-time as opposed to full-time wardens or they could be voluntary personnel. I believe that wardens should help to ensure that restrictions are observed. However, their purpose is also to offer general help to the public to enable them to enjoy access land. They are particularly useful at honeypot sites. I hope that I have adequately summarised the duties of wardens. I do not consider them to have a "lock-up" function, as it were. That is a dreadful use of English, for which I can only apologise. The function of the ranger or warden is to assist people as well as to ensure that restrictions in regard to access are observed.

I thank the Minister for meeting us again only two days ago to try to resolve the difficult problem of wardens. I would not dream of putting words into his mouth but I think he will agree that we both accept that there is a problem with regard to wardens and the provisions of the Bill. We have heard in other contexts that local authorities and bodies such as the Countryside Agency have had to stop funding certain activities due to a lack of central funds and competing demands. I have in mind particularly the situation in Wales where the Countryside Council for Wales has had to reduce its support for biodiversity action plans due to lack of funds. The Government recognised this problem and have brought forward an amendment to tackle it which we shall not debate tonight. However, as I say, the Government recognised that the problem existed and that it needed to be tackled.

We are also concerned that local authorities may acknowledge a need for rangers or wardens but, as they have no statutory duty to employ them, may fail to vote funds to this area. Amendments Nos. 11 and 12 simply place a legal duty on local authorities to take any steps which they believe are necessary to achieve the objective I am discussing. As the Minister has said at earlier stages of the Bill, the Government are making a sum of money available to local authorities--I describe it as a pot of money--to support the purpose and thrust of the Bill. However, at the moment within that pot of funds no money is specifically allocated to the provision of wardens. Nor is the Minister--perhaps he will confirm this again--prepared to ring-fence the amount of money that local authorities will receive.

23 Nov 2000 : Column 998

We have a problem here. I moved the amendment on 7th November (at col. 1428 of Hansard). Its basic aim is as stated:

    "Every access authority or district council shall take such steps (whether by the appointment of wardens or otherwise) as appear to it to be necessary or expedient to achieve the purpose set out in subsection (3) as respects access land in their area".

Under the terms of the amendment authorities are obliged to take these steps. They cannot fail to take them because of a lack of funds.

The Minister indicated that he hoped to be able to bring forward a measure on this issue. Unfortunately that has not occurred and therefore I propose this important amendment. All of us want the Bill to work successfully but further statutory measures are needed with regard to some of its provisions. I beg to move.

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