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Division No. 2

CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Barber, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bell, L.
Belstead, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brigstocke, B.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L. [Teller]
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Carrington, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalfont, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cooke of Islandreagh, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Cranborne, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Deedes, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eames, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Hambro, L.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Hanson, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macfarlane of Bearsden, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Marlesford, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Oxfuird, V.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prentice, L.
Prior, L.
Pym, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogan, L. [Teller]
Rotherwick, L.
Saatchi, L.
Sainsbury of Preston Candover, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tebbit, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Walpole, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wilcox, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wolfson, L.
Young, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Birmingham, Bp.
Birt, L.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Crawley, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Haskins, L.
Hattersley, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Jacobs, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Laming, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Longford, E.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molloy, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Nicol, B.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Orme, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Peston, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Serota, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shepherd, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stern, B.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wakefield, Bp.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young of Dartington, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

15 Nov 2000 : Column 314

5.41 p.m.

[Amendments Nos. 13 and 14 not moved.]

Clause 59 [General duty of Chief Constable to report to Board]:

Lord Hylton moved Amendment No. 15:


    Page 31, line 8, leave out ("personal") and insert ("personnel").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, in Committee it looked as though "personal" might be a printing error, but we learnt that it was in fact intentional. Amendment No. 15 is therefore an amendment of principle and not just one of drafting.

The Patten commission recommended that requests for reports of sensitive personnel information relating to individuals might be referred by the Chief Constable

15 Nov 2000 : Column 315

to the Secretary of State. There can be little doubt about that. I understand "personnel" in that context to refer to police personnel. Substituting "personal" as the Bill does, greatly widens the scope. It broadens it to include sensitive personal matters affecting any member of the general public. That, in my view, goes too wide and unnecessarily limits the board in relation to the Chief Constable.

We are dealing with the board's right to full information on policing matters. We should remember that we are talking not about published reports, but about reports that are internal to the board, which might well be confidential or have some higher security classification.

The Government's reply in Committee was not exactly convincing. The noble and learned Lord said that "personal" has been inserted so as to be consistent with the Data Protection Act. That may not be a pure red herring, but it hardly seems to compare like with like. We are not in this case discussing data protection, but rather policing and how to make the board effective and to keep it informed about operational matters over which it has some responsibility but no direct control. I beg to move.

5.45 p.m.

Lord Cope of Berkeley: My Lords, I hope that the Government do not fall for the blandishments of the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, on this occasion, ingenious as he has been in putting the amendment forward. There will be some information about other people--not policemen or members of the civilian police staff--which is likely to be contained in such reports. It should not be spread around, particularly if the board includes people in close touch with terrorists and others, as may well be the case.

A later amendment attempts to avoid that--at least to some degree--but even if it were passed it is likely that there will be some people on the board to whom it would not be sensible to release personal information.


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