Previous Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page

Lord Windlesham: My Lords, we can all agree that this has been a notable debate on a topical issue of public policy. It has gone to the heart of the criminal justice system--if "system" is the right word--and how it is administered.

It is always unwise in a brief summing up to refer only to one speaker, but I think your Lordships will agree that the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hurd, was one of the most profound statements on crime and punishment that we have heard in the Chamber for many a long day.

The noble Lord, Lord Hurd, and others paid tribute to Sir David Ramsbotham. I join those tributes unreservedly. There is no need to add to what has been

31 Oct 2000 : Column 846

said about the forcefulness and independence of his reports and the skill with which he has presented them to a wider public. As the report of this debate will be read by some of those outside the Chamber in the Prison Service and the Probation Service, I put on record my appreciation, which I am sure that Ministers share, of the long period of distinguished public service given by the Chief Inspector of Probation, Sir Graham Smith, who is well known to some of us in the House.

It is extraordinary that the two current chief inspectors, who are distinguished public servants, were not consulted about the proposals. Sir David Ramsbotham, in his forthright language, has said that he was frozen out of the discussion on the future organisation of the inspectorates. That is on public record. The fact that both were known to be utterly opposed to the idea of a merger is no reason for their exclusion.

The Minister seemed to assume that a merger would take place and defended it ably. Viewed in its worst light, the aim of that policy is to get rid of the Chief Inspector of Prisons. But even if we are more magnanimous--I see the Attorney-General nodding and smiling; he wants us to be more magnanimous--it results from a dogmatic attachment to a loosely defined concept of joined-up government. Of course it is desirable to work together in the pursuit of common aims and objectives, such as the reduction of offending and the protection of the public. However, when it comes to translating such generalities into practical working, I suggest that the voices of experience, and dispassionate assessments of future arrangements, should be listened to. We have heard such voices in the House this evening. That is why I wish to press the amendment.

6.35 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 16) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 188; Not-Contents, 120.

Division No. 6


Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Astor, V.
Attlee, E.
Barker, B.
Biffen, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Cranborne, V.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L. [Teller]
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanson, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L. [Teller]
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Hylton, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jopling, L.
Kelvedon, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas, L.
Ludford, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McNally, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Noakes, B.
Norfolk, D.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow of Woking, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Trumpington, B.
Vinson, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Windlesham, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young, B.


Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Molloy, L.
Nicol, B.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warner, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

31 Oct 2000 : Column 848

6.48 p.m.

Clause 11 [Establishment of the Service]:

Next Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page