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Division No. 3


Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Boardman, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brightman, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnarvon, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chadlington, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Coe, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Cranborne, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Deedes, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ezra, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L. [Teller]
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Hylton, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jopling, L.
Kelvedon, L.
Kimball, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Ludford, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
McNally, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Noakes, B.
Norfolk, D.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
O'Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L. [Teller]
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Prior, L.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trumpington, B.
Vinson, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wigoder, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Windlesham, L.
Young, B.
Young of Graffham, L.


Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fitt, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mishcon, L.
Molloy, L.
Morgan, L.
Nicol, B.
Parekh, L.
Patel, L.
Paul, L.
Peston, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Serota, B.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

31 Oct 2000 : Column 812

4.29 p.m.

Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 5:

    Page 52, line 11, leave out (", the chief officer").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 6:

    Page 53, line 16, leave out ("may") and insert ("shall").

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I can be very brief on this amendment which provides that in every area there shall be a secretary and a treasurer. The Minister appeared to hint that some areas may be too small to have a secretary and a treasurer. I suggest that no area will be so small that it could survive without a treasurer and a secretary. That is why I have tabled this amendment. I beg to move.

Lord Renton: My Lords, the Government really should accept this amendment. The idea that regulations may or may not provide that each local board should appoint a secretary and a treasurer seems to me absurd. Each one will need a secretary and a treasurer and the regulations should insist upon that.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, as the noble Baroness says, this amendment would place an

31 Oct 2000 : Column 813

absolute requirement on the Government to make regulations so as, in turn, to require local boards to appoint a secretary or a treasurer.

In most cases, local boards will want to appoint a secretary and a treasurer and the Government intend to lay regulations to deal with various conditions as to their appointment so as, for example, to ensure that treasurers belong to one of the recognised accountancy institutes.

However, there may be cases where it is not appropriate for a local board to appoint its own secretary or treasurer. Boards covering only a small area, as the noble Baroness acknowledged, may, for example, feel that they do not need their own secretary or treasurer and that it would be better to buy in such services, either from another board or from elsewhere, such as a firm of chartered accountants. In that case, the board may well not want to appoint a particular individual to the position of secretary or treasurer but may prefer to contract with an outside firm for the purpose of securing such services.

I understand the point raised by the noble Baroness. It may be that for nearly all services a secretary or a treasurer will need to be appointed. So if she withdraws her amendment, I certainly undertake to reflect more on the matter.

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving an undertaking to reflect on this issue. However, given that the number of areas is to be reduced from 50 or so to 42, can he give the House one example of an area that would be too small to appoint a secretary or a treasurer?

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