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Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: I am sorry to have to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis. It is for government, the European Commission itself and those of us involved in public life to explain to people what these bodies do. I do not think that it is a matter for the electoral commission, especially as--the noble Lord knows this--it is a matter of some controversy. The very fact that he admits that the material issued by the European Commission to inform the public is discounted by many people underlines my point. If the electoral commission put out the same kind of material to explain the same kind of issues, its impartiality might be brought into question by some people who might not approve of what it said. That process would endanger the other roles of the electoral commission which are much more important.

I was pleased to hear the assurances which have been given. Those assurances may be referred to in the future if anything goes wrong with the electoral commission and it ceases to be the impartial body the noble Lord thinks it will be. I should have liked to hear the Minister say that he would reconsider the wording of the measure so that the meaning of "pending" is made crystal clear and we do not have to refer to another part of the Bill to confirm that meaning. We shall have to return to the institutions of the European Union. I am

10 Oct 2000 : Column 213

certainly not convinced about the grant-making bodies. When we reach the relevant amendment I may wish to test the opinion of the Committee.

The Earl of Onslow: Before the noble Lord withdraws the amendment, I have a question for the Minister. What is meant by the term,


    "institutions of the European Union"

as they are not defined? Do the common agricultural policy and the common fisheries policy comprise institutions? What are the institutions?

Lord Bassam of Brighton: I take the institutions to mean in this instance the functioning parts of the European Union. That measure enables people to understand exactly what they are voting for.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Viscount Allenby of Megiddo): Before I call Amendment No. 42A, I inform the Committee that if this amendment is accepted I cannot call Amendments Nos. 44 to 48.

Lord Norton of Louth moved Amendment No. 42A:


    Page 8, line 30, leave out from ("Kingdom") to end of line 39 and insert ("; and


(b) any electoral system that has been authorised by enactment, but is not yet in force, for use at the next national or local election").

The noble Lord said: For the reasons I have advanced I believe that Amendment No. 42A would improve Clause 12. As the Government have not indicated that they will give ground with regard to Clause 12, I wish to test the opinion of the Committee.

6.34 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 42A) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 70; Not-Contents, 129.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS

Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cranborne, V.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Freeman, L.
Garel-Jones, L.
Glentoran, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Henley, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Home, E.
Howe, E.
Jopling, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lucas, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Vivian, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Young, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Healey, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Molloy, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Orme, L.
Parekh, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Richard, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shepherd, L.
Sheppard of Liverpool, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Winston, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

10 Oct 2000 : Column 215

6.43 p.m.

[Amendment No. 43 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]

The Deputy Chairman of Committees: Before calling Amendment No. 44, I have to inform the Committee that if the amendment were agreed to I cannot call Amendment No. 45.

[Amendments Nos. 44 to 48 not moved.]

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish moved Amendment No. 49:


    Page 9, line 1, leave out paragraph (b).

The noble Lord said: I thought the reply on this amendment was entirely unsatisfactory. I beg to move.

6.45 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 49) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 59; Not-Contents, 128.

Division No. 2

CONTENTS

Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cranborne, V.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Freeman, L.
Garel-Jones, L.
Glentoran, L.
Henley, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Home, E.
Howe, E.
Jopling, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lucas, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Vivian, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Young, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Healey, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Molloy, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Orme, L.
Parekh, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Richard, L.
Roper, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shepherd, L.
Sheppard of Liverpool, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warner, L.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Winston, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

10 Oct 2000 : Column 216

10 Oct 2000 : Column 217

6.55 p.m.

Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendment No. 50:


    Page 9, line 9, at end insert--


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