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The Earl of Caithness: I sympathise with the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey. On the one hand he has a brief which suits his inherent instinct that we must have greater access, particularly around the coast. The other, as he is a good parliamentarian, must be very difficult to swallow; that is, that Parliament is not going to be given a proper chance to debate, amend or alter these provisions.

The advice I have been given is quite contrary to that of the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey. My amendment gives a much clearer definition. Why in respect of a statutory instrument should the Government say, "Okay, in the Bill you can have access to a certain amount of land which is defined, but by statutory instrument we can extend that to any other land which we think is so fit"? It could be farmland, gardens or anything one likes. It could be woodland. Woodland is specifically excluded in the Bill but under the statutory instrument the Government could say, "We can do what we like". And Parliament has little say in the matter; it must either throw out the statutory instrument or accept it. I believe that that is totally unacceptable and I want to test the opinion of the Committee.

2.50 a.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 149) shall be agreed to?

3 Oct 2000 : Column 1433

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 25; Not-Contents, 66.

Division No. 2

CONTENTS

Arran, E.
Attlee, E.
Blatch, B.
Burnham, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E. [Teller]
Glentoran, L.
Henley, L. [Teller]
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Montrose, D.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Oxfuird, V.
Peel, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Bach, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Desai, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Greaves, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Hayman, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Judd, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Nicol, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Thornton, B.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

3 Oct 2000 : Column 1433

3.1 a.m.

[Amendment No. 150 not moved.]

Lord Glentoran moved Amendment No. 151:


Page 3, line 12, at end insert--
("( ) An order under this section shall not be made unless the Secretary of State (as respects England) or the National Assembly for Wales (as respects Wales) has consulted those interests likely to be affected by the order, has undertaken and published a

3 Oct 2000 : Column 1434

regulatory impact assessment in relation to the proposed order, and has undertaken and published an assessment of the effects of a proposal for any such order on--
(a) the environment, including any effects on the natural beauty, flora, fauna and geological and physiographical features of the land affected,
(b) the use and management of land adjacent to the land affected, and
(c) flood and coastal defence and coast protection in relation to the land affected.").

The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 151. I was not satisfied with the Minister's explanation in relation to this amendment. It is not that I do not trust the noble Lord or members of the Government but I look to the future. There should be some controls on the face of the Bill in relation to the powers of the Secretary of State, and I wish to test the opinion of the Committee.

3.2 a.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 151) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 24; Not-Contents, 65.

Division No. 3

CONTENTS

Arran, E.
Attlee, E.
Blatch, B.
Burnham, L. [Teller]
Byford, B.
Glentoran, L.
Henley, L. [Teller]
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Montrose, D.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Oxfuird, V.
Peel, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Bach, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Desai, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Greaves, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Hayman, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Judd, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Nicol, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Thornton, B.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

3 Oct 2000 : Column 1435

3.13 a.m.

Clause 3 agreed to.

Clause 4 [Duty to prepare maps]:

[Amendment No. 152 not moved.]

Lord Glentoran moved Amendment No. 153:


Page 3, line 17, at end insert--
("( ) In preparing the maps, the Countryside Agency shall consult the Nature Conservancy Council for England.").

The noble Lord said: We move on to another serious topic--mapping. Amendment No. 153 is not a difficult amendment for the Minister. It is based on a good deal of common sense and has much to recommend it.

The amendment places a duty on the Countryside Agency to consult English Nature in preparing maps. In Wales, the Countryside Council for Wales fulfils the functions which are performed in England of both the Countryside Agency in relation to access and the Nature Conservancy Council--English Nature--in relation to the conservation of wildlife. In particular, when it is undertaking mapping, the Countryside Council for Wales will be fully aware of any sites of special scientific interest. It will accordingly be made aware at an early stage of any sites where there may be possible conflicts between conservation and recreation which might need to be tackled by restrictions under Clause 24 of the Bill. We all have some sympathy with the Minister in the counterbalancing he has to achieve. There are conflicts of interest throughout the Bill. This is a particularly sensitive area.

In England, it is not at all clear whether and at what stage English Nature will see the draft maps so that it can identify areas of SSSI land which have been mapped and consider the implications. A high proportion of access land is likely to be designated as SSSIs. It is important that English Nature should be aware at an early stage of the specific areas of land involved. The amendment will ensure that the close collaboration which will occur in Wales between those parts of the CCW concerned with access andconservation will be replicated in England by close contact between the Countryside Agency and English Nature. I beg to move.


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