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Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I would not like to be misrepresented. I made it clear that I always ask people to go with an open mind and to make up their own mind. I do not encourage them to go as such or give them a recommendation. I do precisely what the Government want us to do; that is, I never comment on individual zones but leave my friends to make up their own minds.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, that was a courageous intervention by the noble Baroness. In evidence before the Select Committee, Peter Middleton of Namura described what the Dome had accomplished so far as, "a tremendous achievement". Many of the storms that have eddied around the head of the Dome spring from the original estimate of visitor numbers given in the business plan which was prepared under the previous government. That plan estimated 12 million visitors. We were not on the way to reaching that figure and by May it was apparent that a major reduction in the estimate was required. That resulted in the revised budget on which the Dome company is now operating. That budget is based on four months' trading.

The noble Lord, Lord Lamont, asked for realism. We have now got a budget based on the actual trading experience, something we could not have had before. As the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, said, when we have something as unique and innovative as this, it is difficult to judge how many people will come. It is possible to indulge in an orgy of hindsight, in the way the noble Lord, Lord Baker of Dorking, did. But one must make judgments and be brave about those judgments in order for a project like this to occur.

My hope is that the original estimate being wrong will not overshadow what has been achieved. The Dome is now the most popular pay-to-visit attraction in the United Kingdom. It has high customer satisfaction figures and is the fifth most popular pay-to-visit attraction in the world. As my noble friend Lady Dean said, we must also remember that the Dome is about much more than the creation of a successful visitor attraction in Greenwich.

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When the Millennium Commission chose Greenwich as the site for the Dome, it did so in part because of the regeneration factor that it brought. Locating the Millennium Experience on the Greenwich Peninsula has been a key decision that has helped regenerate a derelict and contaminated site that had lain idle for more than 20 years in the fifth poorest borough in the whole of England. English Partnerships transformed that site into an area that has already begun to flourish with a variety of new developments, including the Dome, innovative community facilities and fresh ideas which are creating an exciting new urban quarter for London.

In evidence to the Select Committee last month, a representative of Greenwich council estimated that the number of jobs which would be created by the Millennium Experience would be in excess of 30,000. As has been mentioned in the debate, the Legacy Competition is now in its last stages and will provide a permanent future for the Dome. There is a short list of two strong bidders who came from a long list of 70. That is indicative of the fact that the market believes that there is a real opportunity in relation to the Dome.

It has been a stormy road and I am sure that the storms will continue. Indeed, as there have been difficulties, so we see the likes of the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, standing up painfully and making sure that nobody could now associate her with the Dome, contrary to her position previously. But I believe that the prize of a successful exhibition for the year, a permanent legacy and a regenerated Thames Gateway is attainable and worth fighting for. I believe that in time the project will be judged a success, just as it is judged a success by 85 per cent of the people who visit it.

Perhaps I can deal with the points made by noble Lords in the course of the debate. First, the accountability and public inquiry issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, has in a sense already been answered. It is dealt with by parliamentary accountability. Since May 1997 over 1,100 parliamentary Questions have been answered; there have been five inquiries into the Millennium Dome by the Select Committee in another place; this is the third debate in this House and there have been another two debates in the other place. The National Audit Office is also looking into various aspects of the Dome. It was always envisaged that we would investigate expenditure of public money, which should be completely accountable, by the procedures of Parliament. I have no reason to believe that they are not working.

The next question the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, asked was what, on reflection, I felt had gone wrong with the project. For all the reasons I put forward, I believe that the project will be judged a success. The problem relates to the original visitor estimate of 12 million. Around that hinges many of the controversies surrounding the Dome. Although that was a wrong estimate, it should not detract from what the Dome has achieved.

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The noble Lord asked also whether the shortfall in commercial income, originally put at £194 million, is now fully covered by the loans that have already been made by the Millennium Commission. I can put the position shortly. The 1998 corporate plan figure for commercial income was £194 million. That included a £25 million contingency. The June 2000 business plan, which is the current business plan, estimates £86 million based on trading performance and a projected total of 6 million paying visitors. That figure contains no contingency. Therefore, the loss in commercial income, if one ignores the contingency, is £83 million. That money is covered by an additional Millennium Commission grant, cost savings and legacy proceeds, so it still balances at £758 million.

The noble Lord's third question was whether I could guarantee that there will be no finance of any kind put into the Millennium Dome by the back door. I understood that question to be associated with question five; namely, whether I could guarantee that money that might have gone to English Partnerships will not be used to subsidise the Dome. There is competition at present to buy the Dome and there are two short-listed bidders. Once a bid is accepted, a division of the proceeds will take place reflecting the contribution of English Partnerships, which owns the land, and the Dome company to the joint venture representing that which has been purchased by the bidder. That will be done on an objective assessment of how the proceeds should be divided.

The noble Lord's fourth question was whether I could guarantee that the loans from the Millennium Commission will be repaid. The position in relation to the amount of money provided by the Millennium Commission is as follows. There was a £399 million grant that was not envisaged to be repaid. In addition, there was a £50 million cash flow facility, with an additional £89 million being made available of which it is envisaged £13 million will be repaid. That makes a total sum of grant from the Millennium Commission of £525 million.

I believe that I have answered specifically all the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Lamont. I do not have time to answer all the other questions raised during the debate. But, as regards any specific question raised, I shall write to noble Lords in response.

Regulation of Investigatory Powers Bill

8.41 p.m.

Consideration of amendments on Report resumed on Clause 13.

Viscount Astor moved Amendment No. 19:


    Page 15, line 16, leave out ("an appropriate") and insert ("a fair").

The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this amendment and Amendment No. 20 were grouped with Amendment No. 18 with which, as the Minister may remember, we managed to scrape a lucky vote. Therefore, I beg to move.

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On Question, amendment agreed to.

Viscount Astor moved Amendment No. 20:


    Page 15, line 32, leave out ("appropriate") and insert ("fair").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 20A not moved.]

Clause 14 [General safeguards]:

Lord Bach moved Amendment No. 21:


    Page 16, line 30, at end insert--


("( ) The arrangements for the time being in force under this section for securing that the requirements of subsection (2) are satisfied in relation to the intercepted material or any related communications data must include such arrangements as the Secretary of State considers necessary for securing that every copy of the material or data that is made is stored, for so long as it is retained, in a secure manner.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Bassam, I move Amendment No. 21. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, raised in Committee the question of material that is lost or stolen. He expressed the view that such material would not be disclosed or otherwise made available and may, therefore, be outside the scope of Clause 14(2).

We have reflected on the helpful points that the noble Lord made, and now put forward this amendment in the hope that an explicit requirement to store intercepted material and data securely will reassure those who are concerned that it might otherwise not be so stored. I should add that the storage and handling of intercepted material already involves the highest levels of physical, technical and personnel security. None the less, I hope that this amendment will be welcomed by the noble Lord. I beg to move.


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