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Viscount Bridgeman: My Lords, I find that reply disappointing. The suggestion that the structure of government has not changed since 1866 leaves me slightly perplexed. We shall study the Minister's remarks carefully, but we shall look at them most critically. That said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 13 and 14 not moved.]

Clause 9 [Preparation]:

[Amendments Nos. 15 to 20 not moved.]

Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendment No. 21:

("( ) For the purpose of subsection (4)(a) and (b) the Treasury shall in particular--
(a) have regard to any relevant guidance issued by the Accounting Standards Board Limited or any other body prescribed for the purposes of section 256 of the Companies Act 1985 (accounting standards), and
(b) ensure that the accounts include, subject to paragraph (a), a statement of financial performance, a statement of financial position and a cash flow statement.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I spoke to this amendment with Amendment No. 2. I beg to move.

Lord Higgins moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 21, Amendment No. 22:

    Line 4, leave out ("have regard to") and insert ("accept").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move, and seek the opinion of the House.

5.55 p.m.

On Question, Whether Amendment No. 22, as an amendment to Amendment No. 21, shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 94; Not-Contents, 165.

Division No. 2


Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Belstead, L.
Biffen, L.
Blaker, L.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L. [Teller]
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Chadlington, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fookes, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goschen, V.
Hanham, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L. [Teller]
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jopling, L.
Kelvedon, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lucas, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow of Woking, L.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wilcox, B.
Windlesham, L.
Young, B.


Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Diamond, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fitt, L.
Gale, B.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Laird, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
McCarthy, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molloy, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Northover, B.
Parekh, L.
Patel, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Peston, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Serota, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shepherd, L.
Sheppard of Liverpool, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turnberg, L.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walpole, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

4 Jul 2000 : Column 1439

6.6 p.m.

[Amendment No. 23, as an amendment to Amendment No. 21, not moved.]

On Question, Amendment No. 21 agreed to.

Clause 15 [Finance]:

Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendment No. 24:

    Leave out Clause 15 and insert the following new clause--


(".--(1) If it appears to the Secretary of State to be expedient in consequence of any of the matters specified in subsection (2), he may by order amend, repeal or make provision similar to any of the following provisions of the Government of Wales Act 1998--
(a) section 81 (statements by Secretary of State),
(b) section 85 (expenditure by National Assembly), and
(c) section 86 (statements by National Assembly).

4 Jul 2000 : Column 1440

(2) The matters mentioned in subsection (1) are--
(a) any provision of this Act,
(b) a change in the accounting methods used by the National Assembly,
(c) a change in the procedures of the House of Commons relating to public money, and
(d) a change in the form of Appropriation Acts.
(3) An order under this section--
(a) shall be made by statutory instrument,
(b) may include incidental or transitional provision, and
(c) shall not be made unless a draft has been laid before, and approved by resolution of, each House of Parliament.
(4) The Secretary of State--
(a) shall consult the National Assembly before making an order under this section which relates to section 81 of the Government of Wales Act 1998, and
(b) shall not make an order under this section which relates to section 85 or 86 of that Act unless a draft has been laid before, and approved by resolution of, the National Assembly.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment substitutes a new clause for the existing Clause 15. It empowers the Secretary of State, which in practice means the Secretary of State for Wales, to make changes to Sections 81, 85 and 86 of the Government of Wales Act in consequence of the accounts and budget of the UK Government changing from a cash to a resources basis. The intention is that the accounts and budget of the National Assembly will, at the same time, also move to a resources basis. The power will enable the Secretary of State to make appropriate changes to those provisions in the Government of Wales Act to ensure that the National Assembly's budgetary processes can be changed to a resources basis.

The power is exercisable by order and will be made by statutory instrument. Before the Secretary of State can exercise the power he needs to consult the National Assembly in so far as he is changing Section 81, which provides for the Secretary of State to make a statement of his estimated payment for each financial year. He will be required to obtain the Assembly's agreement before he can change Sections 85 and 86, which deal respectively with expenditure by the National Assembly and its statement of proposed expenditure for each financial year. In addition, to ensure that proper parliamentary scrutiny of this power is maintained the Secretary of State will be required to lay a draft of any order before both Houses of Parliament for their approval.

We believe that this is a necessary power whose limits have been clearly defined and is subject to a high level of parliamentary scrutiny and National Assembly involvement. I am pleased to say that in its 23rd report the Select Committee on Delegated Powers and Deregulation was satisfied that the order-making power was appropriate. I beg to move.

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