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Lord Bach: I am grateful to the noble Lord for that. I can tell him that it is 40 sitting days.

Lord Cope of Berkeley: In which case, it is more likely that a prosecution may proceed far enough for the amendment to be relevant.

Lord Avebury: I am grateful to the Minister for his assurances. In view of the undertaking that we can look again at this matter on Report, I certainly shall not press my amendment.

Viscount Bridgeman: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for his response to Amendment No. 189 which I shall read with care in Hansard. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

6 Jun 2000 : Column 1096

[Amendments Nos. 189A and 189B not moved.]

Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendments Nos. 190 and 191:


    Page 58, line 36, leave out paragraph (b).


    Page 58, line 38, at end insert--


("( ) Subsections (1)(a) and (3)(d) do not apply to an order made under regulations made under section 96.").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 122, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 123 and 124 agreed to.

Schedule 15 [Consequential Amendments]:

Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendments Nos. 192 to 202:


    Page 140, line 2, at end insert--


("Criminal Justice Act 1967 (c.80)
.--(1) The Criminal Justice Act 1967 shall be amended as follows.
(2) In section 67(7)(b) (computation of sentences) for "section 14 of the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989" substitute "section 41 of the Terrorism Act 2000".").
>Page 140, line 30, leave out ("paragraphs 1(1), 2 and 5 of Schedule 8 to") and insert ("any provision of").


    Page 140, line 45, leave out sub-paragraph (7) and insert--


("(7) For section 61(9)(b) (fingerprinting: disapplication) substitute--
"(b) applies to a person arrested or detained under the terrorism provisions." ").
Page 141, line 3, leave out sub-paragraph (8) and insert--


("(8) For section 62(12) (intimate samples: disapplication) substitute--
"(12) Nothing in this section applies to a person arrested or detained under the terrorism provisions; and subsection (1A) shall not apply where the non-intimate samples mentioned in that subsection were taken under paragraph 9A of Schedule 8 to the Terrorism Act 2000." ").
Page 141, line 7, leave out sub-paragraph (9) and insert--


("(9) For section 63(10) (non-intimate samples: disapplication) substitute--
"(10) Nothing in this section applies to a person arrested or detained under the terrorism provisions." ").
Page 141, line 22, leave out sub-paragraph (12) and insert--


("(12) For section 118(2)(a) (definition of police detention) substitute--
"(a) he has been taken to a police station after being arrested for an offence or after being arrested under section 41 of the Terrorism Act 2000, or".").
Page 141, line 33, after ("74(2)(d)") insert ("and (e)").


    Page 141, line 35, at end insert ("or


(e) an order under section 111 of the Terrorism Act 2000 (forfeiture orders),".").
Page 142, line 23, leave out from ("substitute") to ("to") and insert (""sections 37 and 38 of, and Schedules 5 and 6").


    Page 142, line 28, leave out ("paragraphs 1(1), 2 and 5 of Schedule 8 to") and insert ("any provision of").


    Page 142, line 37, leave out from (""(b)") to ("applies") in line 38.

6 Jun 2000 : Column 1097


    Page 142, leave out lines 41 to 43 and insert--


(""(12) Nothing in this Article applies to a person arrested or detained under the terrorism provisions; and paragraph (1A) shall not apply where the non-intimate samples mentioned in that paragraph were taken under paragraph 9A of Schedule 8 to the Terrorism Act 2000."").
Page 142, line 45, leave out from ("Article") to ("applies") in line 46.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

[Amendment No. 202ZA not moved.]

Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendments Nos. 202A to 205:


    Page 143, line 18, leave out paragraph (b) and insert--


("(b) for paragraph (f) there shall be substituted--
"(f) section 111 of the Terrorism Act 2000 (forfeiture orders)." ").
Page 144, line 34, at end insert--


("Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998 (c.35)
.--(1) The Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998 shall be amended as follows.
(2) In section 5 (fixed term prisoners: special cases)--
(a) in subsection (2) for "section 16(2) of the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1996" substitute "section 80(2) of the Terrorism Act 2000",
(b) in subsection (3)(a) for "section 16(2) of the 1996 Act" substitute "section 80(2) of the 2000 Act",
(c) in subsection (4) for "section 16(2) of the 1996 Act" substitute "section 80(2) of the 2000 Act", and
(d) at the end of subsection (4)(b) insert ", and
(c) section 16(2) of the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1996."
(3) For section 14(3)(a) (inadmissibility of evidence or information in certain proceedings) substitute--
"(a) be admissible in proceedings on applications made under paragraph 1, 2, 5, 11, 13, 22, 28 or 30 of Schedule 5 to the Terrorism Act 2000.".
.--(1) This paragraph applies to a reference in section 14(2) of the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998 (inadmissibility of evidence or information in certain proceedings) to an offence under a provision ("the old provision") of--
(a) the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989, or
(b) the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1996.
(2) The reference shall be taken as including a reference to an offence under this Act which is committed in circumstances which would have amounted to the commission of an offence under the old provision before it ceased to have effect.").
Page 144, line 43, leave out ("(g)") and insert ("(h)").


    Page 145, line 1, leave out ("(h)") and insert ("(i)").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Schedule 15, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule 16 [Repeals]:

Lord Bach moved Amendments Nos. 205A and 205B:


    Page 145, line 46, column 3, leave out ("Paragraph 2") and insert ("Part I").


    Page 145, line 46, column 3, at end insert--


    ("Part I of Schedule 2.")

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Schedule 16, as amended, agreed to.

6 Jun 2000 : Column 1098

Clause 125 [Report to Parliament]:

Lord Cope of Berkeley moved Amendment No. 205C:


    Page 59, line 4, after ("report") insert ("prepared by a professional legal adviser who is independent of the Government").

The noble Lord said: In moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 206 and 207. Clause 125 provides for a report to be prepared on the workings of the Bill, or the Act as it will become. That is in line with what has happened in recent years in relation to the emergency legislation which is being replaced by the provisions of this Bill.

To a certain extent the amendments are probing but they are intended to get on the record a little more detail about what the Government have in mind as regards that report. There are three points listed in the various amendments.

First, it is important that we continue to have the benefit of an independent report on the working of this legislation. We all know that, as has been said this afternoon, we are passing draconian provisions to apply in circumstances when we all accept that draconian provisions are necessary. Nevertheless, it is right that we should ponder them from two points of view: first, to make sure that draconian provisions are still required and that the necessity for them still exists. There is no doubt about that in my mind at the moment but, nevertheless, that should be reviewed and in detail. But, secondly--and more importantly--we must make sure that they are working properly so that we do our best to defeat terrorism, while also ensuring that proper regard is being paid to human rights and everything that we, as a civilised country, hope to keep in mind in applying draconian legislation.

Such reports have been prepared for the past few years by Mr John Rowe QC, to whom we paid tribute earlier. Indeed, his work was much quoted in some of our previous debates. Formerly the reports were produced by other distinguished lawyers, notably by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, for quite a few years. It is important that such reports should continue to be prepared by a "professional legal adviser" who is independent of the Government and is of similar standing to those distinguished gentlemen.

Secondly, Amendment No. 206 provides that the reports should cover not just the legislation itself, as specified in the Bill, but all the orders and regulations that are made under it. It has been absolutely apparent throughout our discussions that a great deal of the important detail of these provisions lies in orders and regulations made under the Act. Therefore, it is the way that the orders and regulations are being applied which is important, as well as the Act in general.

My third point is made in a slightly sideways sense in Amendment No. 207. This amendment would ensure that, as at present, such reports should be debated in "each House of Parliament". That is currently achieved by way of the relevant legislation expiring unless it is debated, which is an extremely fierce form of guillotine to ensure a parliamentary debate. We do not propose such a process, but we suggest that there

6 Jun 2000 : Column 1099

should at least be a trip-wire in the provision to ensure that the Government do lay the reports before Parliament and gain its approval for the way in which the draconian legislation is applied. I beg to move.


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