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Lord Cope of Berkeley: I hesitate to work too hard in the interests of Scotland, not least because those of your Lordships who come from England or Wales, or for that matter Northern Ireland, may not realise that the only chap Bonnie Prince Charlie beat in the course of the 1745 rebellion was General Sir John Cope--no relation of mine as far as I am aware!

Lord Bach: He was not perhaps the noble Lord's grandfather or some other such relation? As we have been talking about relations in general, I wonder whether the noble Lord is quite sure about that.

Lord Cope of Berkeley: He certainly was not my grandfather; it was 1745! But I cannot be entirely certain as to whether he was a more distant relation. I am not sure of all my relations that far back, but, as far as I know, he was no relation. The Scots, having defeated him, wrote a rude song and a pipe tune to match. It has been my experience in life that, whenever I am within range of a piper who discovers my name,

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he is likely to start pumping up his equipment. Thus I am not inclined to work too hard for the Scottish interest.

Lord Carter: Is the noble Lord aware that at this time of the evening the debate should be addressed to the question before the Committee?

Lord Cope of Berkeley: I did realise that. I also realised the confusion there would be if both the Scottish Parliament and ourselves were attempting to legislate in the same jurisdiction on these matters. It is certainly not my wish that we should get into a situation where to incite terrorism of a particular kind in one part of the United Kingdom was legal whereas in other parts it was illegal. Therefore, all those inciting

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terrorism went to one particular part of the United Kingdom to do it. That would be the effect if we did not carry Clause 61 as it stands now or something very like it, so I do not intend to pursue my opposition to Clause 61.

Clause 61 agreed to.

Clauses 62 to 64 agreed to.

Lord Bach: I beg to move that the House do now resume.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

House resumed.

        House adjourned at seventeen minutes before eleven o'clock.


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