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Lord Carter: Perhaps I may help the Committee on this point. I clearly do not wish to discuss from the Dispatch Box the timing of Bills but the fact is that there is a legal requirement for certain Bills before the House--for example, the Terrorism Bill--to receive their Royal Assent by the Summer Recess. With regard to other Bills, like this one, it would be desirable but not legally essential for them to receive Royal Assent by that time. We have not yet thought of a date for Report. By the time that date becomes available and is clearer, we shall know much more about the timetable of the consultation. So your Lordships will not lose anything by accepting what my noble friend has proposed.

There will be a Report stage. When we reach the Report stage, noble Lords will know exactly the state of the consultation and the likely reporting date. If noble Lords then feel that that is too long, they can take the necessary action. If they are satisfied with that process, they might wish to deal with the matter in a different way on Report.

Lord Henley: As the Government Chief Whip has intervened, will he then go further and offer an assurance that, irrespective of the date of the Report stage, he will be able to delay the Third Reading until

22 May 2000 : Column 508

possibly November to allow us to see both the document and the results of the consultation promised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis?

Lord Carter: That was a good try! I see some noble Lords opposite whom we do not often see here, so I understand the Opposition Chief Whip's anxiety on this matter. Obviously, I cannot say that I can delay the Third Reading until November. I have said that we have to get the Committee stage, Report and Third Reading of certain Bills by the summer and that, by the time this Bill has a date for Report stage, noble Lords will be much better informed. We can inform noble Lords about the nature of the consultation and its timetable and they can then decide at the Report stage what to do with the proposal from the noble Baroness, Lady Strange.

Baroness Park of Monmouth: Perhaps I may suggest to the Minister that there is no reason why the Committee should not express its view--incidentally, I have spoken before on this subject: I am not new to it--and let that be taken into consideration when the consultation comes along. We are surely part of that consultation. The amendment is a means of expressing our view. Moreover, we have expressed it on several earlier occasions. I shall be very interested to know what new factor might emerge, other than money and the availability or lack of it, that could change that. As far as I understand it, the Government's difficulty is very much more with the extension of the decision to a number of other deserving parts of society than with the actual issue of the MoD. That is why I think it would be wrong to forgo our chance now of expressing our view on this very limited, precise matter. We have gone over it many times before. I cannot see why we should not express our view now and have it taken into consideration in the consultation.

Baroness Strange: I do not know what to say or what to do. So many noble Lords have spoken and I thank them all. I should like to thank my noble friend Lady Fookes, who is also the vice-president of the War Widows Association, my noble friend Lord Astor of Hever, who made a moving speech, my noble and gallant friend Lord Craig of Radley, my noble kinsman Lord Russell, my noble friend Lord Alli, my noble friend and former enemy Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish, my noble friend Lord Renton, my noble friend Lady Carnegy, my noble friend Lord Elton, my noble friend Lady Park of Monmouth, my noble friend Lord Stoddart of Swindon and, particularly, my noble friend Lady Hollis, who has been really sweet and has listened to absolutely everything.

I am very sorry to have to do this to her--I really am. Perhaps even now, if it could see the amount of support that there is for it, the Ministry of Defence might consider moving this small item forward in a separate agenda. I do not know that I shall even allow

22 May 2000 : Column 509

my noble friend the Chief Whip to have another bite at the cherry. He will just have to gobble me up now. I shall cross my fingers, shut my eyes and fling myself onto the patchwork, fibreglass cow. I wish to test the opinion of the Committee.

5.10 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 175) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 143; Not-Contents, 117.

Division No. 1


Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brigstocke, B.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cowdrey of Tonbridge, L.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Cranborne, V.
Dahrendorf, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Ezra, L.
Fookes, B. [Teller]
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Hanham, B
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hogg, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jopling, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lincoln, Bp.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Nickson, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Oxfuird, V.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Prior, L.
Quinton, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rennard, L
Renton, L.
Rix, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stern, B.
Stewartby, L.
Strange, B. [Teller]
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Waddington, L.
Waverley, V.
Wilberforce, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Windlesham, L.
Young, B.


Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Molloy, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nicol, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Serota, B.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Uddin, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

22 May 2000 : Column 511

5.20 p.m.

Clause 61 [Loss of benefit for breach of community order]:

[Amendment No. 176 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]

On Question, Whether Clause 61 shall stand part of the Bill?

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