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Lord Saatchi: I am genuinely curious about the nomenclature of amendments. I wish to understand for my own benefit, having little experience of such matters, why it is necessary to have such complicated designations. They are almost impossible to follow and the confusion felt by members of the Committee testifies to that. Perhaps the Minister can shed some light on the matter.
Amendment No. 254S worries us because the latest set of amendments to Clauses 251 to 255 appear to allow the FSA to exercise its powers of intervention in relation to a collective investment scheme without giving firms a minimum of 28 days in which to make representations. We acknowledge that provision may be necessary in rare and urgent cases but the new clause appears to apply also to non-urgent cases. The wording does not include any test of reasonableness in relation to the period allowed for representations. The
changes have the effect of removing for managers and trustees the safeguards provided in Clause 375 in relation to warning notices.We are puzzled, to say the least, as to why the Government want to make those changes at such a late stage of the Bill.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I am grateful to the noble Lord for reading the brief provided by AUTIF because this matter was distinctly debated with Clause 188. If I had not also read that brief, I would not have been able to reply.
The new clause for governing the procedure for issuing directions to managers and trustees of authorised unit trusts requires the FSA to consider if necessary, having regard to the grounds for giving the direction, whether the direction is to have immediate or early effect. That is a stiffer test than requiring the FSA to consider reasonableness.
Earl Russell: The nomenclature of the amendments arises from the fact that it is possible to table amendments after the composition of the original Marshalled List. In a lengthy Bill such as this, people inevitably notice things that they might not have done on first, second, third, fourth or even fifth reading. One could either change the numbering of the amendments already identified, which would cause confusion, or stop the power to table amendments as we go along--which would restrict the power of the House. If amendments are to be added between Amendments Nos. 153 and 154, attaching letters is the only option. It is confusing and perhaps it is the worst system, except for the alternative.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: There was an attempt a couple of years ago to change to the system in the other place, whereby amendments are numbered according to the order in which they are tabled. I was among those who resisted that change rather fiercely. I believe that it is essential for the proper conduct of business in this House that we go through the Bill exactly in the order in which it is printed. There should not be another dimension--the date that an amendment is tabled. That would mean going backwards and forwards through the numbers. Of course the lettering system is difficult but it is logical.
Lord Elton: Since the noble Lord saved us from the imposition of such a system, we all owe him a great debt. The present system is very difficult to understand but the other one would have been impossible. To speak in defence of my noble friend on the Front Bench, this amendment may be part of a group that has already been spoken to, but the number of amendments in the groups that come before the Committee is such that those who are not full-time professionals with appropriate staff cannot always be expected to keep up to date with them.
6.30 p.m.
Lord Saatchi: I am grateful to my noble friend and also to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, for setting me straight on the procedure.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 252 [Procedure: giving directions and varying them otherwise than as requested]:
On Question, Whether Clause 252 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I have already given notice of my intention to oppose the Question that Clause 252 stand part of the Bill.
Clause 253 [Procedure: refusal to revoke or vary direction]:
Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendments Nos. 254T and 254U:
- Page 129, line 18, after ("proposes") insert ("--
The noble Lord said: Amendments Nos. 254T and 254U have already been spoken to in the same group. I beg to move.
Lord Elton: I am now becoming confused. The Minister said that these amendments had been spoken to in the same group. I cannot find Amendment No. 254T in the same group which begins with Amendment No. 254J.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: It is in the group which begins with the Question whether Clause 188 stand part of the Bill. I shall be more explicit in future.
Lord Elton: The noble Lord refers to the gigantic group. I am grateful to him.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
[Amendment No. 254UA not moved.]
Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendments Nos. 254V and 254W:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 253, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 254 [Procedure: revocation of direction and grant of request for variation]:
[Amendment No. 254X not moved.]
Clause 255 [Procedure in cases of urgency]:
[Amendment No. 254Y not moved.]
On Question, Whether Clause 255 shall stand part of the Bill?
Clause 259 [Representations and references to the Tribunal]:
Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendments Nos. 254YA and 254YB:
The noble Lord said: Amendments Nos. 254YA and 254YB were spoken to with Clause 188 stand part. I beg to move these amendments en bloc.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 259, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 261 [Power of Authority to suspend promotion of scheme]:
Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendments Nos. 254YC and 254YD:
The noble Lord said: Amendments Nos. 254YC and 254YD were spoken to with Clause 188 stand part. I beg to move them en bloc.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 261, as amended, agreed to.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendment No. 254YE:
(a) to vary the direction otherwise than in accordance with the application, or
(b)")
Page 129, line 20, leave out subsection (2).
Page 129, line 22, leave out ("refuses") and insert ("decides to refuse").
Page 129, line 25, leave out subsection (4).
The noble Lord said: Amendments Nos. 254V and 254W were spoken to in the group which includes the Question whether Clause 188 stand part of the Bill. I beg to move.
Page 133, line 34, leave out subsection (5).
Page 133, line 38, leave out subsection (7).
Page 134, line 19, leave out subsections (4) to (9).
Page 135, line 10, at end insert ("and sections (Procedure on giving directions under section 261 and varying them on Authority's own initiative) and (Procedure on application for variation or revocation of direction)").
After Clause 261, insert the following new clause--
(" .--(1) A direction under section 261 takes effect--
(a) immediately, if the notice given under subsection (3)(a) states that that is the case;
(b) on such date as may be specified in the notice; or
(c) if no date is specified in the notice, when the matter to which it relates is no longer open to review.
(2) A direction may be expressed to take effect immediately (or on a specified date) only if the Authority, having regard to its reasons for exercising its power under section 261, considers that it is necessary for the direction to take effect immediately (or on that date).
(3) If the Authority proposes to give a direction under section 261, or gives such a direction with immediate effect, it must--
(a) give the operator of the scheme concerned written notice; and
(b) inform the competent authorities in the scheme's home State of its proposal or (as the case may be) of the direction.
(4) The notice must--
(a) give details of the direction;
(b) inform the operator of when the direction takes effect;
(c) state the Authority's reasons for giving the direction and for its determination as to when the direction takes effect;
(d) inform the operator that he may make representations to the Authority within such period as may be specified in it (whether or not he has referred the matter to the Tribunal); and
(e) inform him of his right to refer the matter to the Tribunal.
(5) The Authority may extend the period allowed under the notice for making representations.
(6) Subsection (7) applies if, having considered any representations made by the operator, the Authority decides--
(a) to give the direction in the way proposed, or
(b) if it has been given, not to revoke the direction.
(7) The Authority must--
(a) give the operator of the scheme concerned written notice; and
(b) inform the competent authorities in the scheme's home State of the direction.
(8) Subsection (9) applies if, having considered any representations made by a person to whom the notice was given, the Authority decides--
(a) not to give the direction in the way proposed,
(b) to give the direction in a way other than that proposed, or
(c) to revoke a direction which has effect.
(9) The Authority must--
(a) give the operator of the scheme concerned written notice; and
(b) inform the competent authorities in the scheme's home State of its decision.
(10) A notice given under subsection (7)(a) must inform the operator of his right to refer the matter to the Tribunal.
(11) A notice under subsection (9)(a) given as a result of subsection (8)(b) must comply with subsection (4).
(12) If a notice informs a person of his right to refer a matter to the Tribunal, it must give an indication of the procedure on such a reference.
(13) This section applies to the variation of a direction on the Authority's own initiative as it applies to the giving of a direction.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment was spoken to with Clause 188 stand part. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
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