Previous Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page


Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. However, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, the more he spoke, the more I felt the virtue of the amendment. It seems to me that there is a great deal of circular thinking in what the Government have to say. I do not deny that the Minister went to great pains and took a good deal of trouble over his response to the amendment. But the more he spoke about secondment, collaboration and information sharing--indeed, he even offered to bring forward an amendment about enabling sub-contracting--the more I thought, "Let's make it simple; let the Commission for Health Improvement inspect both sectors".

Moreover, with the greatest respect to the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, the entire purpose of the amendment is to simplify the system. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, put it extremely well when he asked, "What happens in beds 2, 4 and 8, while beds l, 3, 5, 7 and 9 get a different regime?" That seems to me to highlight the absurdity of the current situation, whether you play it with secondment, collaboration or joint training. Quite honestly, the word of the day, "bizarre", which was uttered by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, sums up the position that the Government

28 Mar 2000 : Column 685

have reached. They have given further and further ground in terms of being willing to accept some of the arguments, but the argument that they are not accepting is that the Commission for Health Improvement is the body to regulate both sectors.

Last night, I looked at the website for the Commission for Health Improvement. It is full of the very great and the very good. Indeed, looking at its objectives on that website, it seems to me that CHI would be entirely able to carry out--and, indeed, would do so extremely competently-- the duties that we seek to impose on it. I have every confidence in that respect--and that seems to be a great deal more than the Government are expressing. I could go on at greater length, but I shall not do so. We believe this to be a most important matter. It is one that affects the lives and the health of those in independent healthcare. It is an extraordinary element of illogicality that the Government propose to take forward. Therefore, in those circumstances, I propose to seek the opinion of the House.

5.41 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 15) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 162; Not-Contents, 132.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bellwin, L.
Belstead, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Boardman, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carnarvon, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clement-Jones, L. [Teller]
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Crathorne, L.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Deedes, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Emerton, B.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L. [Teller]
Higgins, L.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Ludford, B.
Luke, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Prior, L.
Quinton, L.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rennard, L
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Seccombe, B.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Vinson, L.
Vivian, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Walpole, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wigoder, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ahmed, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gregson, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
McCarthy, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nicol, B.
Orme, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton,
L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

28 Mar 2000 : Column 687

5.52 p.m.

Baroness David moved Amendment No. 16:


    After Clause 7, insert the following new clause--


Next Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page